Dave Nemeth — Trend Forward, Looking To The Future and Virtual Malls

And once again, it is what's involved, special guest for you. And I was shocked. He was shocked, too, when I mentioned him. The last time I chatted to him was a year ago. And I thought, well, a lot's changed in a year. A lot hasn't changed in a year. But I want to talk to him again. Who is he? He is founder, CEO, chief cook and bottle washer at Trend Forward, Dave Nemeth. How's it, Dave? How's it, David? Good to speak again. I actually can't believe that it was 12 months ago. It just shows you being stuck in an office, how quickly time flies. And it does. I mean, while we're in the middle of the sort of first wave of the Covid pandemic, we thought the year would never end. And bang, now we are really in August. I mean, it's insane. But I wanted to chat to you because I know that you are one of those people who is like me very optimistic about the future and about the country, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought, well, what's happened with Trend Forward in the last year or so? So give me an idea and an update, because I know at that stage you were saying a lot of stuff is going to go online. A lot of things are going to change. People looked at you and thought, shame, poor Dave is, you know, just humanly insane.

And once again, you were proven correct. So talk to me about the stuff that has changed in your world. Well, Covid obviously turned everything upside down, whether it was exhibitions or whether it was retail. Companies didn't have staff and many of them still don't have staff working from offices. So the obvious progression was, wow, we've got to take everything online. And that was a bit of a double edged sword because companies that had a very small presence online suddenly have a larger one. Everyone out there that was involved in some other business thought it was an easy move to quickly move into marketing. And suddenly you have all these social media experts and web experts. And ultimately what you have is a lot of noise. Yes, everything did go online. A lot more went online. If we have a look at sales over 2020, I think online sales increased by 40 percent with Rand value. People are more comfortable. That number is continually growing into this year. But it's not necessarily a great experience. You know, if you go online and you look for a product, you suddenly find thousands of the product that you are looking for. But it becomes tedious and boring. So we started experimenting within the virtual space.

It kicked off with virtual exhibitions. And again, many people were advertising virtual exhibitions and it was nothing more than a directory of people that was supposedly exhibiting and you could pull up a PDF. And we decided to really make that a great experience. And we've done some incredible 3D stuff. We have created one of the largest virtual showrooms in the world for a company called Cobra, who's quite an iconic South African brand in the sanitary game specialising in taps. And then also for their sister company that they own, which is a Japanese based company, I'm sorry, a German based company, called Grower. So that got us on the road to this virtual stuff. And it's really, really fun and amazing. I mean, the stuff is all rendered in 8K. So you can imagine the sort of detail that you're able to get. And we've just been pushing boundaries and we've been pushing boundaries in it. And the interesting thing is, is that people are eating it up. You know, it's very simple to use, but we were very nervous in the beginning that the sort of older generation and I mean, guys from 40s even would battle to use these kind of things or not embrace it. And it's been completely the opposite.

People are loving it. So we continue to push boundaries. Which is one of the reasons I like talking to you now. Interestingly enough, a couple of years ago. Now, let me think, probably five, maybe six years ago, I was working with a guy and he wanted to develop an online shopping mall. And it had to be 3D and everything. And we did quite a lot of work around it. The only problem was is that you had to have the goggles. And, you know, when you had the goggles, you had to slide your cell phone in. And it was a bit jerky. And, you know, obviously, interestingly enough, that one of the people or the lot of people that first embraced this whole VR technology was the adult industry. And they seem to have got the gotten stuff quite advanced, at least in that state. But when we had this thing going and everybody was like, yeah, no, no, we don't we don't like it. I think, as you say, things have changed. Do I still need goggles, though, to go and check out through mall? Absolutely not. So our VR 3D stuff works on a mobile phone. It works on a laptop. It works on a desktop. And if you really want to go that route, then you just put it onto your mobile phone, slip it into goggles and yes, you can still view it on goggles.

So it is viewable across every single device, which I think is very, very important. Otherwise, you're just limiting your audience like phenomenally. Yeah. And I think people, you know, everybody said, excuse me, everybody said that VR was going to be the way of the future. And then when they saw that you needed stupid goggles to walk around with them, you know, then everybody was like, no, I don't think we're ready for that just yet. Obviously, coronavirus and Covid has changed a lot of that. But now when you say you've you've developed these malls and these these showrooms, I mean, Cobra is a huge, a huge brand. So can I then walk into Cobra's virtual mall?

Exactly that. So if you go to Cobra dot CEO dot there's a tab that says virtual mall. Sorry, virtual showroom. And there's three different showrooms that have been set up. And you literally click on the little arrows you walk through. As I said, a variety of ways to do that, whether you're on a mobile device or whether you're on a desktop or whether you're using goggles. And then there's product information. So when you click on one of their products, it'll actually bring that product up in a three dimensional version. And you can have a look and rotate that tap and sort of engage with the product. The next step is to link that to the online system so that through the virtual showroom, you will actually be able to do add that product to a basket and then exit and actually pay for that product. And another step that we currently working on, which we've been able to add to the offering is that we can actually form a human being on a green screen and put them into any of these spaces. And when you click on them, they will interact with details about the product or information. So the whole experience becomes a lot of fun. Videos are in there, there's PDFs in there, there's links to social media in there.

You can engage on such a different level. You know, online shopping has become boring. And I think when we created this new online mall, we were certainly not trying to take up more space on the e-commerce side. The aim of this mall is to have great brands curating great product that you can learn more about the product, change it on a monthly basis. And if they have their e-commerce set up, then we will just add it into it and you can actually buy it online. But I think it's more around being able to search for stunning product that is curated in a three dimensional way. Which is brilliant, because that's one of the biggest problems I have with when you when you want to buy something online. I'm very much let me see it, let me feel it, touch it, look at it, you know, find out the specs, et cetera, et cetera. Because I was chatting to somebody the other day that's in the sales game and they were saying that up to 80 percent, if not more, of people's buying decisions these days is made before they even walk into the shop or the outlet. This is exactly it. And I keep saying there is no there's not. We are not going to see a death of brick and mortar stores. Brick and mortar stores are never going to buy.

But the aim of this is to entice people with product offering. They probably didn't know somebody like an Adidas actually have or that they launching a new product and to actually drive traffic back to the malls because you want to try that trainer on, you want to feel that trainer, you want to see if it's good enough for your run on Saturday. So virtual, what we've created virtually is not to replace. It's to create that void in the journey between brick and mortar and the boring online sales portals or e-commerce portals. Wonderful. We're going to talk more about this. And I want to talk more about the mall as well. When we come back, it is what's involved. So good to have you along with us. My special guest from Trend Forward, Dave Nimath back in a bit. And we're back with my special guest from Trend Forward, Dave Nimath. So, Dave, you've now built a virtual mall. And this is probably the first time you're actually going to be really, really publicly speaking of it. But I saw you made the announcement yesterday that the mall has been sold. Talk to me about that. Yeah, so the initial model was, you know, how does any business start to make a monthly revenue? And in the good old days, we had magazines and we looked at that model.

And it was great because you would have advertisers that would continually advertise in your magazine. So the intention was to create this virtual mall, create stands for people. So stores for people and that we would get a monthly rental for every client that was in the mall. And we managed to make these exceptionally realistic. So even if you're a startup, there's an option that's affordable for you. And the idea was we were going to go live in September, probably show parts of it before we're almost ready with the mall itself. And we would then go and sell the space.

With a twist of events, we were approached by a company and they have bought the mall. They have their own luxury clients. The company is called Luxury Exclusives. They've got a footprint throughout Africa. And they are going to they've got exclusivity on the mall for the next 12 months. They are going to bring their clients on board and there will be a collaboration with regards to revenue, et cetera, et cetera. So that whole step of us trying to do something we're not familiar with has now been removed. And it just shows that people are embracing this and it does potentially have a very big future. I think it's got an amazing future. And I'm just I was just trying to equate it back to to sort of brick and mortar. So essentially what you do is if you think about a brick and mortar mall, you guys are the the sort of the owners of the building, as it were. And then you've got a property management company that's handling the tenants. So it's as simple as that.

That's it. And instead of us going and selling a million more malls, there's an exclusivity on it. So it doesn't suddenly get watered out within its first year. I mean, there's a whole lot of other things that can be done with regards to showrooms and gyms and all those kind of things. But I think it's the right way to launch something like this. And then another value add, which is quite interesting. I've always been a sucker for concept stores. And I don't know if you've actually seen the new Adidas store in Santon City. It's one of only four in the world. I mean, it is phenomenal. It is mind blowing. But that's what this is based on. So we're not trying to replicate a let's say, for instance, take any store, let's take Total Sports, for instance, we would not want to replicate the total sports experience of in-store into this virtual. They now have free reign to come up with almost a concept type store, maybe just their latest releases and selective product that will add to the experience of in-store. As a value add, we give them the code for just their store that they can put on big screens. They can put that into their website. They can put that wherever they want so that people can engage with just their digital store and not the rest of them all as well, which I think is phenomenal, because now you can go into a Clearwater store and there's this big screen up and you can interact with this unique offering and this virtual experience as well.

So it crosses over all the way. OK, because let's face it, a lot of people are still very scared. They're still very uncertain about what this world holds for us going forward. And, you know, I like to say that I'm a dealer in hope and I'm always looking on the brighter, more positive side. A lot of people would say, oh, yeah, but now you're going to you're going to facilitate the death of malls. But the way that you've positioned this and explained it, it's actually going to make people want to go into the shop and try on, as you said, that new trainer or that luxury overcoat or watch or whatever the case may be. So I think that's fantastic. But now let's get back to the events thing, because I've got a bunch of people that I know that are in the eventing industry. And I've just I've seen these guys just falling left, right and center. There's just at this stage. I don't think they've got very much hope left at all. And when we talk about eventing, we're talking right from the guys who build the stands to the people who do the electricity, the people who supply the carpeting, all of those things. Is there a way that trend forward virtual could could look at at that? And I'm just thinking, you know, the entertainment industry, all of those things are all shot to hell at the moment.

Yes. And we've been very active in the exhibition space. But let me tell you what the biggest challenge has been. Now, if we talk exhibitions in particular, let's not go to the eventing side of things just yet. Let's talk exhibitions. I mean, it's a multi billion rand business in this country. You go to the dome, which is sadly closed down or you've got a Gallagher state and there's a themed exhibition and you walk around all these exhibition stands and there's networking and there's everything else that for years has been in danger. It's an industry that has been on the decline even before COVID, because everybody was saying it's got to reinvent itself. It's become boring with online. You know, it is a fantastic platform to actually chat to potential customers and businesses face to face, but there's other ways. It's frightfully expensive, et cetera. And what we found was as soon as people started talking about virtual exhibitions, they tried to take that exact experience and duplicate it online. And what do you end up with a zoom meeting? And I think that is where most of them have fallen flat. We've created for those that have been very forward thinking and it has worked exceptionally well is creating this 3D world of exhibition stands.

And we were anti doing exhibition stands in the beginning, because if it's virtual, why do you need an exhibition stand? And we quickly learned that people relate to that. So people are creatures of habit. And when you see that exhibition stand in virtual, you know exactly how to maneuver around it. And to put content there, you don't have to have a million live boxes of chat or anything else, but it's a great way for people to see an industry on Expo and their product. People don't even want to talk to a person necessarily virtually. It's about the content. And I think that's where people have gotten wrong is they've tried to complicate it. They've also tried to replicate a timeframe of an exhibition. If I'm going on a virtual exhibition, don't tell me I've got three days to do it. For goodness sakes, it's virtual. I should have six months in which to go visit it when I want to visit it. And obviously, the revenue streams, if you're keeping it up longer, can be immense because you can change exhibitors on a monthly basis. So I've just found the mindset in the industry. Overall, I mean, there are those that have embraced it just hasn't changed. It's almost like the industry is waiting for things to open up, which I cannot believe will be this year.

And I think we'll be very lucky if we can get those numbers back by the middle of next year. It's a sad state of affairs. Yeah, it is. And I'm just I'm just sitting thinking because and I'm throwing questions at you curveballs. And let's just be very clear about this. Dave always takes his life into his hands when he talks to me because he never knows what I'm going to come up with next. Most of the time, I don't know what I'm going to come up with next. So, you know, but I'm just thinking in terms of you, in terms of trends and what you do and you being a trend analysis and all of those kind of things, let's take it as a given that that for the rest of this year, at least, there's not going to be a big change in our circumstances. We're going to dance up and down the lockdown levels. But lockdown is not going away. I don't think not this year anyway. But people that are in any form of business now, what should they be looking at going forward? And I think, again, to the guys that are in the eventing business or the sound and lights business or whatever it is. I mean, you could you could have a business. Well, like we do, we've got a digital web development and SEO and all of those things that we do.

What should people like in general be looking forward to or looking towards? Well, I think firstly, you've got to throw away how things were pre-COVID because I can't think of an industry that will be exactly back as they were operating prior to COVID. OK, there's two people's mindsets have changed. We already have different habits. We've got no problem having a zoom meeting. We have no problem getting online to communicate, to check something or to interact with something. We've already seen we don't have to go into a fancy office block to work.

All these things have changed business completely yet. I would say 80 percent of people are stuck in the old way of doing things. There is an unknown. And the only way we're going to find out what works, regardless of the industry that you're in, is to consult with external consultants that are involved in innovation in this outside space and start testing different strategies, testing stuff that's not going to cost you an arm and a leg, but is going to give you a quick result. You're quickly going to see if somebody embraces something that you're putting out there or if they don't. And that is the only way. I mean, I can give you lists and lists of what the future looks like. And I think a lot of the forecasters and guys in my space are saying the same kind of things. But there's this unknown. You don't know what's going to work. You don't know what people are going to react to. So you have to have this testing strategy. As far as the guys in the sound and lighting game goes, it's a tricky one. And it really is a tricky one because those big massive events that allowed them probably 90 percent of their income are just not there. So it's great for me to say, guys, open little studios with green screens and do the rest of this and, you know, look at that.

That's fantastic. And a lot of the smaller guys have done that. Unfortunately, a lot of the bigger guys have been hurt pretty much forever until the real big stuff starts again. It's very difficult when your primary business was sound and lighting to change that. You know, we will always need sound and lighting. The unfortunate part is at the moment that there's just none of the big stuff that warrants them making money or having the scale of inventory that they have. Yeah, it's it's that is that is seriously scary, because I mean, I come in part from that that sort of an industry as well. And to see these guys just sitting there and most of them were just like shell shock. Anyway, we'll be back with more of Dave Nemeth and trend forward in just a bit. This is what's involved. And we're back with my guest, Dave Nemeth from Trend Forward. So, Dave, putting on your putting on your forecast is hacked now. We've talked about many of the changes. You guys have embraced a lot of that, in fact. And I think I hope you don't mind me saying this now, but when everybody was still on the fence about whether anything was going to happen and whether there was a third wave, et cetera, et cetera, you'd already made the call.

Shut up officers and send everybody back to their home bases to work because you felt and rightly so that we were going to hit a level four lockdown. Things were going to get worse. You were right. I'm going to ask you, are they going to get worse again sometime this year in your estimation? And then the follow up question to that is what are good businesses to be in now?

OK, so to answer your first question, if we have a look at how things are going, there is rumor that there will be another wave in December. But I think they will the vaccination program and very positively is doing exceptionally well locally. I mean, everyone had something to say about it was a little bit slow off the mark. But I think if you look at the rate that it's current that people are currently getting vaccinated, it's impressive. OK, so there's some putting some money where the mouths are concerned with regards to vaccinations. So I can't see the third which one are we in now, the third, the fourth wave, which could potentially happen as everybody goes on holiday and all the rest being anywhere near as bad as this one. So I don't foresee a lockdown probably as harsh as what we're currently going through. Unless, of course, there's another variant and the vaccinations aren't holding up to it. I mean, that's an unknown. We cannot predict that. So you need to embrace this. It's not going to just be a free for all go to the next big rock concert with 30,000 people. It's not going to happen. Certainly not the side of the hour. I can't foresee that. Exhibitions, as we said, I would say, I mean, realistically, I cannot even forecast with a hall like Gallagher State or even the exhibition center will be able to have 30 to 40,000 people again.

I just can't see that happening. And even if they were open to that, the public has changed as well. We don't like being too close to people. We don't like going into crowded spaces. We've been reprogrammed. So we used to have 50,000 people coming to your exhibition. You now need to plan that you'll actually be lucky if you get 15,000. So that'll be a drastic drop off. Businesses that you want to be in at the moment, anything that is innovating or leading the way. So if you're in the car game, we're not saying suddenly get on to and become a digital expert or get into VR or get into 3D. But how can you change the way people buy vehicles in a fun and exciting way? People are embracing exciting things. We're all bored. Everything is boring. So as soon as something is novel and sure, the price has to be right. If you're in the catering game, if you're in the bakery game, you're not going to stop baking bread. You're not going to start digitally printing loaves of bread. What 3D printed loaves of bread? Which yeah, I mean, you get 3D printed chocolates and all sorts. But that's not the answer. The experience that you give around the bread. How do you innovate and come up with something completely novel in that?

While you're also looking at empowering under the industries, you know, you might have this tiny little bakery and suddenly you change your model a bit and you've got 50 guys on bicycles that are delivering great sandwiches to everyone in a specific area or to people at home. It's that kind of thing. You've really got to dig deep and you've got to be one of the first to market and you've just got to test, test, test until you see what's working. We are not going back to the way things were. It was like the great boom, financial boom in the country in the 80s. And everyone's, yeah, when we get there again, that's not going to happen. Forget it. Things will improve. But we're not going back to that great old big boom, financial boom that we had in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s, I think it was. I think one of the things that you touched on, which I think is very valid to me as well, is because we've never really suffered in this country. And I know there are those who would who would disagree. I'm talking in terms of business. I'm not talking in terms of anything else. We've never really had to fight for our right and for our slice of the pie. A lot of people have become very complacent, you know, in terms of, well, that's the way we've done it.

We've made a lot of money. We will just keep on doing it. There was no need for innovation. And suddenly we get slapped in the face with covid and it's innovative die quite literally. And I think that is that is a huge big challenge. The other challenge is, you know, who do you trust these days? Because like you said, the amount of people that have suddenly popped up that are marketing experts is scary. And the problem is they're not.

Yeah. So I think that's a big thing. You've got to do your homework. I mean, if you really want somebody to handle, for instance, let's take something like social media. If somebody is offering you this ridiculously low price to handle your social media, maybe just go and check their page out, check their social media, look at their portfolios. I mean, we've got guys out there advertising website design and advertising everything under the sun and yet they don't even have one website with except for their own, which is very poorly done in their portfolio. So cheap is not good in the marketing space.

That's a general rule. Cheap is not good. You're going to get exactly what you pay for, which is very little.

Again, and this is excuse me, this is I think very important is in terms of where people are going. There's this thing called the user experience. And when you if you're dealing with online, the user interface. And these are things that people are not taking into account. You know, I mean, I had somebody the other day sent me a mail. They said they could build my website for 800 Rand.

It's like you can have a three page website. And it's like fantastic and, you know, how's it going to look? You know, it is a challenge. And, you know, in terms of even in terms of what we do, we try our best to help people when they come to us and we say, look, you know, I'm not going to do you an 800 Rand website by any stretch of the imagination. Because as we've learned over the years, particularly with websites, there's a whole lot more that goes into building an effective website. You know, anyone in his dog these days with all of those little what you see is what you get, builders, et cetera, et cetera, can slap something together, but it's how you put it together and how big brother Google likes to see it or doesn't like to see it. So, yeah, Dave, I think when we come back, we're going to wrap it up. And then maybe we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, businesses to be in and where you see the future going. So we'll we'll talk about that when we come back. It is what's involved. Dave Nemeth is my guest. And we're back with Dave Nemeth from a trend forward and trend forward virtual now, I believe. And the payoff line there is solutions for a changing world. Dave, one of the reasons I love chatting to you is that that you guys have.

I mean, initially, I think you're a little shocked like the rest of us. But then you took the bull by the horns or the virtual horns and you started to do things and make a difference. Businesses to be in if you, you know, I mean, you said, I was just thinking as you're talking about cars earlier, I thought, can you imagine a virtual showroom where you could walk in and have a look at the car and open it up and, you know, change the colors on the car? And I don't know if that even exists because I haven't been in the market for a car since just after the great track, I think. But, you know, there's just so many things. Is talking to somebody like yourselves? If I go, listen, Dave, I'm a widget manufacturer. Can you help me? Is that something that Trained Forward does? Absolutely. We deal if I told you some of the business we do businesses we deal with, you'd be amazed. So everything from beauty products that we're consulting to to pharmaceutical products, to air conditioning guys, to stationary brands, to retailers. It's about the process of design thinking and innovation. So you're getting a totally different input if you were dealing with someone like our company. But the beauty is we have experience across so many different industries that somebody, for instance, in the car game may not even have thought of a model that we are suddenly seeing work in the food game.

And when you start to unpack that and apply these things, you end up with this extension to your business or a different way of doing things that can really shed results or gain results.

This is interesting. Carry on, Dave, sorry. Yeah, we all get bogged down in our own industries. And no matter how creative thinking we are or anything like that, we end up thinking with blinkers on because we're more worried about our cash flow every month and all those things that go with it. So we put ourselves into a vacuum. And that's why I believe it's so essential to consult with outside companies and outside people on these kind of things. Because like you said, I mean, some somebody like yourselves would come at the at the problem from a totally different perspective. And sometimes I think maybe even not knowing what the rules of a business have always been could also be a plus, you know, because nine out of 10 times, if I speak to be honest, why do you do X, Y and Z? And the answer is because it's always been done that way. And I'm a big fan of asking, OK, but why can't it be done differently? And I think that's that's very much the space that you guys play. But if I'm a small business owner, whether it be a little engineering works, a panel beater, whatever the case may be. What have you got any tips for me to help me along this path? I think before you even go and start looking at people to assist your business and looking at social media, which you need and having a great website, you yourself have to ask yourself three questions and you've got to tear your business apart a little bit.

You've got to ask yourself, who are you? Who are you? What are you? And what are you is not a car dealership. What is going to differentiate you from everybody else? Why are you in business? And why should people come to you? And when you start thinking about those three points already, you're going to start to see possibly some critical problems in what you're doing. Once you have an idea of those things, then you need to start looking at outside help and have a vision of where you want to be. So this is where I am. This is where I was five years ago. Nothing much has changed in my business. This is where I'd like to be. But start unpacking it yourself. If you are just and you said you nailed it earlier when you said complacency and I'm seeing it for big corporates. I mean, we see big corporates going under on a monthly basis and small guys suddenly taking a little bit of that pie because they're just doing things in a different way. I mean, in all honesty, if you have a look at the amount of media we put out there with launching this mall, you would have thought that one of the big landlords who owns one of these big malls would have jumped in and said, you know what, let's play around with this, but not one.

It was a company that is way smaller than these big landlords. And I can tell you with their experimentation in going to market, it would have been a drop in the ocean for one of the big boys. But it's that complacency and just thinking inside the box. No, because to me, like somebody like that, now the malls you're talking about, if I think of some of our bigger malls, I mean, I avoid personally, I avoid malls like the plague if I can possibly help it. And that's that's since even before Covid. That's why I'm on the radio. Love people just don't want to have to see them or deal with them. But, you know, if I could go and look in a virtual mall and find X, Y and Z product in the virtual mall and have a look at it and then go, OK, with my trip out now. So then I can go out. I know exactly where I'm going. I know exactly what I want. I walk in. I say hello. I buy and make my purchase and I can leave. What's happening now in terms of what you've just said is is now, you know, there's going to be this incongruency. I would have thought that a program like yours would have been almost mandatory these days for for malls. Well, that's it. But here's a here's taking it a step further. So let's say, for instance, and I'm just using for a sake, more of wherever is trying to get a higher foot count because not as many people are going to that mall now, they suddenly have a virtual mall and they say, guess what?

You don't even have to shop online here. But these are the great stores that we've got in. Look at the great curated product on a monthly basis. And we will give you a voucher so that there's a discount redeemable, but only from our mall. That person that could have gone to the mall that was five k's closer. Guess what? They're going to get in their car and they're actually going to go. And that is what they kind of missing from the virtual thing. They just going, oh, people want to try it on. People want to see the size. People want to feel it. Absolutely. But there's no gateway online to take them to the mall. The websites, all these malls have are terribly boring, to say the least. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, you know, I would I would let's say if I wanted a pair of designer jeans, I'd love to go and have a look at what they've got and how they've got and, you know, get all the stats. I'm a bit geeky like that. Then I want to try it on. And the only place I'm going to go is a mall. You know, so it just it makes sense. But smaller guys, Dave, I mean, you know, again, and I'm going to hop on this because what I found is those smaller guys out there these days that are going that extra mile that actually do care about their customers and about the experience that that customer has are the ones who are going to stick around for a while because being treated with indifference in South Africa is no longer an option.

That's right. And what they need to do is they need to. So they may still be a small concern, but let's be honest. When it comes to digital, a small business can look like a massive business if it's being done in the right way. You can go to a website of a multimillion round company and they look like a startup because just every touchpoint is designed so bad. And I always say design is everything. Now you have the smaller company and they look like a Louis Vuitton and everything about them from their social media presence to their website to the way they handle themselves in a new consumer's eyes. These guys are massive. They big. So you have that opportunity and any small guys that are out there doing a great job that want to grow. That is what you need to start looking at every single touchpoint. Obviously, all the way down to the person that's serving in your physical store or whatever other touchpoints you have has to be impeccable and it has to stand out above the rest. There's too much noise out there digitally and in the built environment space. Well, the amazing thing I was chatting to Pepe Marais from Joe Public a little while ago. And if you say to Pepe, what who who is who is Joe Public, who are you?

And he's got a one word for it. He says, growth. We're about growth, growth of our people, growth of our clients and growth of the country, boom. And that's what drives them every step of the way. And they're doing very, very well, even now for Covid. Yeah, phenomenally well. And they're still walking away with agency of the year every year. They keep expanding. It is a different mindset. I mean, I know some of the top guys that work there and have worked there. And yeah, I mean, sure, they're doing everything right. Yeah. And their motto is growth. It's about growth. It's not about winning awards. It's not about being the most creative. You know, we can we can dress the weirdest agency. It's about how can we generate growth for our people and our clients and through that for our country, which is the kind of thinking that we need more of. Dave, before I let you go, if somebody if somebody wants to find out more about this mall, when is is there going to be an official launch? Can we get a sneak peek? How does it work? Yeah, so we're hoping in the next two weeks, we will already have a functioning mall where you can view the inside of it and you can there will be things like rate cards up for the clients that that have bought it.

There will be diagrams of the different types of stores, all the dynamics of it and launching with a small selection of stores by the first of September. Yeah, wonderful. Sounds like you've got a lot of work. Where will we find this? Are you just going to put this out on social media? I will I will do an official press release on it and I will put it all out on social media. Fantastic. So just look out for trend forward. LinkedIn as well, I assume you're going to put something on LinkedIn. Correct. LinkedIn. Always good to follow my personal account on LinkedIn, which is Dave Nemeth.

Social and Facebook, it's everywhere. And then our website as well, which is trendforward dot co dot zeta. Trend forward dot co dot zeta. Otherwise, Dave Nemeth on LinkedIn. Dave, thank you for taking the time out again. I'm very excited about this virtual mall. Can't wait to see it and to learn a little bit more. You guys continue to do outstanding work. And it's just great chatting to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, David. And I look forward to chatting again, hopefully not in another 12 months time. You just got it. You just got to innovate faster. OK. Give me more reasons to talk to you. I'm trying. I'm trying. There we go. It wraps it up for the show. My special guest there, Dave Nemeth. Go check it out. Trend forward dot co dot zeta. As I said, wraps it up to each and every one of you. Look after yourselves, take care, and thank you for listening.