Jeff Van Rooyen — Multiculturalism and Inclusion: Building a Better Society

what's your dream what's your goal what's your motivation what's important to you what's your passion what can you do to change the world this is what's involved conversations with thought leaders and change makers from around the world hear stories of hope and inspiration to help motivate people like you to live your life find your passion passion and live your dream together we can all bring positive change to our world now here's your host David Watts once again it is what's involved now we always talk about how great my guests are because I find you only the very best guests you also know that I am a rabid lover of South Africa and South Africans despite our challenges I still believe and I think we need to believe and that's why I love talking to South Africans that have achieved and sometimes achieved despite all the odds one such person is my special guest at this time who am I talking about he is Jeff van Royen the author of unshackled my journey from the township to the boardroom hello Jeff welcome thank you so much David I look forward to our conversation this morning well I gotta tell you I'm very excited to be chatting to you I got the book and it's brilliant it's it's just so interesting and so well read once a bit some people may not even be able to relate to if they are of the younger generation and they were they were born up or they were born up listen to me they were born and brought up is what I was trying to say after 1994 but your story starts a little bit before then so so give me a bit of a background on Jeff and Ryan thank you very much for that kind introduction as well David so yeah I was born in 1950 in Alexander Township and I'm 73 years old now and so I was born to mixed parents my mother's cup was classified colored and my father was classified African and then sadly you know they they separated when I was very young and I was raised by the my maternal family you know hence the name fun boy okay and then because of that classification is as as college you know being the maternal side of my family I was then raised as such and you know went to college schools and lived in colored areas and and and and and so forth so that briefly is the is the background David now Jeff just in in terms of that I mean you you were born as you say in in Alex did you did you spend a fair amount of time there is a youngster yeah not not really because I think you know I started at the primary school there and by the way that primary school was specifically for colored people as well until I was about nine years old and then at the age of nine you know that is when the about the government decided that they really wanted to start you know implementing group areas act in a strict basis they didn't like townships like Alexandra because we it was like a melting pot and they decided they would separate the races of my father and his family moved to Netherlands in Soveto and my mother and our family then moved to nuclear we just also they intensified as a colored area you know and at the time when we moved into nuclear it was occupied many by African people and so the African people are forced to move also to Soveto and the colored people like ourselves were then forced to move into their houses so so that happened at age 9 right so yeah and I mean so today and all those years you know my home language has always been Africans and because apartheid has been so so so successful in keeping you know the races apart I mean I never ever got I think I left Alexandria when I was too young never ever got an opportunity to really interact with with people of other races and so today I only speak two languages you know which is which is which is English and Africans yeah you know it's yeah I'm often at a loss for words because you know I was I was born a couple of years off to you I was born in 67 but ended up having to do my two years national service a large part of that was was spent in the townships and you know that that at that stage apartheid was so pervasive and and it had been so well done that you know it's not an excuse but I literally had no idea about any of this okay I was like okay you have to go to the army because it's the law and we we're fighting against as they used to say in those days desuartafar and I'm like okay I don't know what that means but all right and then you know ending up in the townships and suddenly having my eyes opened and going what the heck is going on because I hadn't been brought up like that you know my dad worked with the multinational company show we often interacted with with people from from all the different race groups my mom was in the dancing world and they were the first one of the very first sports that became multiracial so I was I was kind of used to seeing people around and people of different colors and and I just thought you know in the evenings all the black people went home that's why we didn't see any of them around I didn't I didn't know that this was this big thing and it was it was shocking at the age of 18 and I I'm talking about it as coming from what a lot of people would consider a fairly privileged background even though we were not by any stretch of the imagination well off but clearly by virtue of our skin color we were better off than than a lot of people so I think that context is is incredibly important and particularly show with regards to the book because whilst things have changed a lot of things have remained the same and and just being able to you know to to interact with other people you know it's it's a basic human right and we kind of had no idea how to do it not a clue I think we still battle with that I think there's still a lot of fear but maybe that's a discussion for another time because right now we're talking about you and about your book so thank you you went on Jeff to to to sort of do well in schools and you studied etc etc when did the idea come about that you wanted to become a CA yeah well you know I think for me I might just say because I grew up right raised by my my grandmother and my mother and there was poverty all around me you know I realized when I was job is old that the only way that I that I could break the cycle of poverty was through education because I got a lot of positive reinforcement for my teachers you know I was doing very well at the academically and then so that was the only way that I could see and I always tell people that from the very young age of twelve I pursued education as if the devil was chasing me you know and so after I matriculated in 1967 by the way that's a year when you were born hey in my culture I would I would either have to know cool you sir one of the two yeah so when I matriculated clearly I mean the idea was just for me and I was the first in my family to can imagine as well to matriculate and then I decided well now it's time for me to go to university I wasn't quite sure what I should do I was very good at accounting but I was good at mathematics and so on and then I thought maybe I should pursue a career I should become a medical doctor because those were the role models you know in the community and being born and bred in Johannesburg obviously I applied to the to you know to the local universities but none of them would accept me because they said you know they were reserved primarily for my people and then they said I must go to the University of the Western Cape and to cut a long story short I mean it just killed you know this whole idea being medical doctors so my next option was to do accounting because I've been in accounting as well and I did that through you know correspondence with the University of South Africa and I just have to tell you the story that you know when I when I graduated with my undergraduate degree my big company 1976 you know through UNISA I was looking forward to going to graduation you know it's hard work studying country you know by correspondence they're excited about the idea that I now have an opportunity to graduate with this lovely lovely campus in Victoria looking forward to doing it and then the graduation brochure arrived into my shock you know I discovered that the university expected me to go to the Western Cape to go and graduate along with the other common folk because they had graduation ceremonies for the different race groups I was so shocked by that this is my disappointed that I decided not to go for graduation you know and and then two years later I got my honors degree and then I was able to go to the graduation I just saw on my pride because they had integrated the graduation ceremonies for whites college and Indians right and so our African brothers and sisters were still graduating separately but because I wanted to have the experience of graduating you know that's that I decided you know to go to that to that graduation ceremony and so I knew very very little about the economy profession and I just learned we were having conversations with my Indian fellow students because it was quite a common career for them to pursue you know I got to know about it but I was good at accounting I do well academically that's why then I decided okay let me try this time of the countess he didn't know anything about it there were no back to the company the time in the country I the black or colored and I said well look I don't know you know let me give this a try and it wasn't you know unusual for me to make a decision like that I mean the fact that there were no colored CAs or black says at the time it wasn't sort of problematic for me because I was always always just pushing boundaries you know so just one of those things that I just did like from a very young age now listen I think and this is part of what gets me about your particular story and why I think it should be sort of compulsory reading for just about everybody is that you know but for one or two things and education being one of them your life could have turned out way differently and you know it seems that you you took the academic route rather than getting politicized and caught up in the political turmoil of the time so I think I think that's that's a fascinating story I just have to digress for a second because you know when you say that you came you came from a colored family I'm from I don't know I don't know how you'd classify us we didn't have a lot of money okay we weren't exactly poor but we weren't exactly middle-class we were kind of maybe from the wrong side of the railway tracks but in my family as well you know if you wanted to be successful in life you had to be either a doctor an accountant or a lawyer and that was what my folks pushed for so you can imagine their horror when I said I wanted to be a radio presenter but again that's a story for another day but they were also very old-fashioned and they were hoping that I would be the first in our family to actually get a degree and graduate so sadly they were disappointed I'm not sure if anybody in the rest of the family has managed yet but so far it looks like the what's is our non-degreed people I want to talk about about some more of the book and about you wanting to apply for your articles and then wanting to start your own practice we'll do that when we come back this is what's involved my special guest is Jeff and Roy an author of unshackled my journey from the township to the boardroom we'll be back with Jeff in just a bit this is what's involved don't forget to subscribe and leave a review more next and we're back what's involved that is my guest is Jeff and Ryan great book you guys need to get this will tell you how but later on the book is called unshackled my journey from the township to the boardroom and as I said Jeff and Ryan is my guest who shall now be known as room Jeff to me I think project maybe would work for me because I still get shocked when people call me women I'm at the 10 age of 55 now so but if you've now graduated okay you've got to do articles and then once you've completed your articles then you can you could look at a practice of your own in these days it should be easy and simple to our minds to do something like that tell us your story though yeah so in my particular case you know because there were no black child accountants or African you know black child account I was aware of so I applied it random just selected some firm that random said to them listen my name is Pandroian I'm articulated at at CJ both are high my first language is Africans but I'm black and I'm sticking articles and I always joke and say that they invited me for the interview because they must have been very curious you know about this person you know who seems to be have such a strong sort of African's background and yet says that he's black and I say that they must have said this we've got to see that's why they invited me to the interview but I was very determined you know because I knew that without articles I wouldn't be able to qualify as a child the economy is a requirement and I said to myself on the way there that you know they're gonna have to give me this articles or they'll have to call the security to drag me out of there you know and then fortunately cut the long story short they decided to grant me articles but they manage my expectations very well they said to me listen Jeff you know you're the first person of color that we're going to be employing in this position we know our clients are not ready to have a person of color on the audit teams so we're gonna keep you inside of the office you're gonna do work in the office you will have no client contact until such time that we think that the climate has changed got a long story short fortunately to their minds the climate change two years later and in my third year I was I was then transferred I was transferred to you know to audit completed my articles qualified as a chartered accountant and most child accountants looking for major accounting firms aspired to be partners you know in the firm and that was certainly my aspiration when my time when my time came for consideration then I was told that the firm was not ready now this is not external not the clients they were telling me that some of the partners in the firm were not ready to have a person of color as a partner I was told I was told that if you if I wanted to become a partner I should take a transfer out of the country you know to the time sky office we just considered to be another country you know and they would once again you know very shocked dismayed appalled and then I decided well I can't sit around and wait for people to deal with their own racial prejudice and their own bigotry because you don't know how long you're gonna be such a lot how long you would be sitting around you tell me that not ready for a promotion and you're able to tell me what my weaknesses are at least you're giving me something to work on you know but it's racism and bigotry I've got nothing to work on and that's when I decided I'm going to set up my own practice which of course created that I was confronted by completely different set of problems but of course there for a moment okay now I'm just you know I'm smiling it's like you know in those days it was look you got the qualifications you're a wonderful human being if you could just maybe wash the brown off a bit you know these days it sounds ludicrous to us but this was this was a fact and then you then you wanted to go and start your own practice and I'm sure there were raised eyebrows it's like how are you going to make money catering to the colored Indian and black community because there are no real businesses there so that has to be the first challenge but then we wanted to situate your office also became a challenge absolutely David and just to give share a bit of an anecdote on washing the brown of as you say when I was in primary school often joke that I was washed twice because I was right by my grandmother and she obviously she also grew up in a very very rich you know this conscious society her generation and she was very concerned about my complexion I was the darkest you know of all of her grandchildren so when I was in primary school I would wash myself and she would have a look at me and she wouldn't be too happy and she would wash me again that's really a true story you know and yeah and so yeah so so then I decided well you know if I'm not gonna get you know I can't sit around and wait for these guys so I'm gonna set up my own practice now then I made this discovery that I'd worked in Johannesburg now as an article talk for a number of years right I had qualified I had a couple of years post qualifying experience working in Johannesburg and then I just discovered hey you know you can't actually be set up a practice I was told by landlords when I tried to apply for office premises and they said no Jeff you have to go to the apartment of community development that is what it was called and apply for a permit under the group areas act right I couldn't understand it because I said but guys you know I've been working in this in town for many years why do I need to apply for group areas act and then they said look it's fine for you under the group areas act to be employed in the central business district but you cannot be an employer in the central business district and then I had to apply for a permit and thankfully you know after about six months of doing it going with the Department of Community Development I managed to secure that permit and as you say you know my client base was primarily black businesses, black NGOs, trade unions you know those were my client base that was my client base. I had one interesting client though you know because of again my name and the language and all of those things I was approached by a group of women they called themselves it's a sort of a society of women you know but they called themselves he bond famudas right then a group of africaner women right on famudas really called me up one day and they said and I said just by the name because I was practicing as fandrian and company you see and so they must have selected us at random and then called me up and asked they could come and see me because they were looking for auditors and as these two young ladies well not young ladies I mean they were all 60 plus you know came to see me and you can imagine their experience having grown up in South Africa as well they then came to see me at my office and you know most people when they have an idea of what they expect to see lose their composure and it would take them two or three minutes to recover you know but these two these two ladies honestly you know David I'm telling you when they saw me right they did not even flinch right one fun with us right came at a chat with me I said I'd be so happy to be auditors and I ordered you know their books we paid their financial statements for about a decade to be honest and at the end of every financial year when I take the financial statements to them I will have tea and cake and that to me is a lovely lovely story I regret that I haven't dealt with it in the book it's a lovely lovely story because it does give one hope you know that that it is possible for us in this country you know to transcend race and both a kind of a different society so I had my first taste of it really you know when I was in practice with this this was good for you but other than that most of my clients as you say we're black and it was hard it was difficult because you know that if we're in terms of affordability and so on but I was very happy to do it because I always felt that I should use my knowledge and my experience I make a difference within my sphere of influence you know and it just gave me an opportunity to make that difference and and I think that is that is one of the things that I picked up in the book and now and now chatting to you as well Jeff is this concept of hope despite everything that is gone on despite challenges that were thrown at you you've always had the sense of hope that this is not how it should be and and I can help make things better in whatever way shape or form that I can yeah David it's a very very good point that you raised because you know having been a a bit of if you like of racism and bigotry I've simply on the basis it's clearly on the basis something superficial it's about the color of one skin right I I feel so strongly today David that if you want to judge people right that you must judge people on the basis first of all I say don't judge because publicly we're not supposed to judge because we don't walk in the shoes of those people right because we're human because we're human and we you know frail and all of that you tend to judge but I say to judge judge people on the basis of the values and the principles and not on the basis of the color of the skin nor the gender or the sexuality of all of us and I believe that to be honest with you David I believe that all of my heart and and and I also am an idealist in a way I'm an optimist in a way because I have a very multicultural family you know my my one daughter is married to an African the other one is married to a white South African my grandchildren look like the rainbow nation and so and and and you know I really generally believe that it is possible you know it is possible that we can build a different you know society you know that's one of the big take away from me from my experience you know the other big take away from my experience is that I never allowed other people to define my boundaries for me there are so many people who said to me Jeff you know when I said I want to be it even started with my trick when I said look I want to matriculate people thought that I was setting the bar too high then I said look I want to be a graduate I want to get to know you setting the bar too high I want to be channel accountant know you setting the bar too high but throughout my life I've been pushing boundaries and absolutely refused to know other people to set boundaries for me you know but even as I speak to you today but I speak to you today I mean as you know it's so much happening in the country there's so much negativity in the country you know people are complaining all the time but the message my message to young people is to say listen you know the if you want to make something of your life right no way your talent lies in my case it happened to be education but someone else like yourself it happens you're a radio personality so I say no way your talent lies and nurture their talent and don't put yourself in a dark space where you see the world as a hostile place and you see the whole the world is as a difficult place because if you do that you're not going to recognize the opportunity even when it's right in front of you so I say just always the way positive happen open mind and be single-minded about you know pursuing your career aspirations you know and that regardless of where we are in the country I mean we're not in a good space generally in the country but that's what you need to do and try and find a way within your own space to make a difference so that we can both this new society that I believe it's possible for us to go wonderful stuff and I agree with you wholeheartedly this is what's involved my special guest is Jeff and Ryan author of unshackled by Jenny from the township to the boardroom when we come back we'll be finding out how Jeff landed up in a boardroom all that and more on what's involved back in a bit hey like what you're hearing share the podcast with your family and friends and spread the word this is what's involved and we're back what's involved this my guest is Jeff and Ryan unshackled my journey from the township to the boardroom so Jeff your practice is going let's let's fast forward a bit how did you transition and end up in boardrooms and end up on the various boards that you're on because you're on you sit on the boards of a couple of really impressive companies at the moment yeah well I've been on the board of MTN group for 12 years where I served on quite a number of the board subcommittees and because of my bank financial background certainly at the audit committees of MTN I also served on the board of auxiliary resources which is a mining company for job yes and in my last two years I was the chairman of the board and as I'm speaking to you I'm still on the board of you can pay where I chaired the audit committee until about a year ago so I transitioned you know from that position but I'm still on the board and I will be returning this year I'm very happy to just give you a sense of how this happened but so for me you know the big advantage about being a child of accountants is that it just opens up so many opportunities for you you know you can stay in the accounting profession which was my initial aim if you like I wanted to become a partner and remain in the profession or you can move out of the profession into commerce and industry many many childhood accountants are acting as chief financial officers of company you can go into academia the process of thing that you could do and then for me an opportunity opened up for me to to become the chief executive of the financial services board which is a regulatory body right I didn't know much about financial regulation but I had a lot of financial knowledge and expertise as a child of accountant applied for that position got the position stayed there for for a couple of years and then introduced very very significant legislation that one of the things I'm very proud of during my tenure at the financial services board and the person who is responsible for piloting what we call the face legislation you know through Parliament and that is legislation that professionalized the financial services industry because now if you want to practice as a financial advisor you need to get registered you need to meet certain criteria etc so you know just doing my tenure that I that you know that that law was it was kind of pretty face so that's my proud achievement there but I've always because I've been most of my life in the private sector you know I was never going to be working in an institution like that which is a semi-government institution forever so I decided to get back into you know into into the private sector and then I started getting office to you know to join boards I had probably in the first couple of years more than you know like a dozen office to serve on boards but you know you have limited capacity and I decided upfront that I would restrict myself you know to three boards and I selected those because I thought that they were very strategic and interesting and exciting and I would be able to make a contribution I just want to single out if I may I became a director of pick and pay can I can I can I do that absolutely yes we'd love to hear that okay so so I was shortlisted I was shortlisted candidates candidate for a board position at we can pay and in particular they were looking for someone to chair the audit committee now even at that stage we can pay listed on the general books topic exchange multi-billion and you know business which is controlled by the Ackerman family they themselves you know externally wealthy family although Raymond also started off poor you know he wasn't a wealthy person I mean he thought of poor and if anyone's interested in Raymond's story they should read his memoir which is called getting grasshoppers jump you know and so so when I was invited to then meet with Raymond first thing I did was read his memoir and when I read it I saw that there were very many similarities along how he started out what these struggles were how you were able to overcome the struggles and then I went you know for the interview at the interview not only with Raymond but with these entire family it was Raymond his wife and his children and his son in law and all of those people sitting around the board room having the conversation and at the end of it you know Raymond offered me the job and and for me again that is what gives me hope you know because that we can build this new society because a lot of people were telling me as I was preparing to go through that process a lot of people were telling me that there was no way that I would succeed and one of the reason that they gave was they said Jeff because you are not Jewish you know is they say the Ackerman family in a Jewish family and there is just no way that they would appoint someone like you to chair their audit committee which is we deals with the finance you know the heart of the business there's no way but then at the end of that conversation I had with the family I was offered the job and as I said I've been there for 16 years you know and the only reason why I'm stepping down this year is that you know I am 17 years old now and I need to play more golf I need to find time you know for leisure activities you know yeah and I really enjoyed I've enjoyed myself really my tenure as the director of all of these companies but because you know I'm also entrepreneurial you know I set up my own investment company some 17 years ago and and so I'm running that business right now I mean we've been able to grow it we've got a good portfolio of businesses and then two years ago I brought my eldest daughter into the business as well just as part of my own succession planning so you know I've really been blessed but again it's a case of you know if you again I come back to what I said earlier on that I think if you've got a good set of values and principles you be prepared to work hard you positive you open-minded you know I think I think you can make a success of your life and I think in some ways you know I'm I'm I'm and I say it you know quite humbly and quite modestly but in some ways you consider where I come from you know Alexander Township and where I've landed I just hope that other people young people in particular will draw some inspiration from it David yeah no listen I think everybody can draw inspiration from from the story and just the way that you that you talk about your life and what comes through for me is that there's there's no recriminations you don't go oh this and that and think of all the excuses why you seem to focus all the time on the positive Jeff when we come back though we're gonna wrap up and people can find out where to get the book and also I'd like to touch on the Gulf story because you have a passion not just for Gulf but for Caddies as well so we'll talk about that when we come back this is what's involved I'm speaking to Jeff and Roy an author of unshackled his journey from the township to the boardroom back in a bit you're listening to what's involved with David Watts have you been to our website check it out www.what'sinvolved.com and while you're there click on the coffee mug icon and by David a cup of coffee they'll love it and we're back what's involved that is my guest is Jeff and Ryan unshackled is the book my journey from the township to the boardroom and just before the break Jeff I said we're gonna talk about Gulf and we're going to talk about Caddies now I can't really talk about Gulf because I play a rather unique game which is called Mur N Sook so Gulf is really not my forte but the Caddie side of it I understand and and let me just tell you a little bit about about one of my experiences is when I used to live in Nelsprite we had an eventing company there and I got to meet a gentleman by the name of Robert Kumeade who actually started out as a Caddie at the Nelsprite golf course and Robert has gone on to do some amazing things in his life couple of controversies but I think he's a great I think he's a great guy and and Caddies Caddies are something and just talking to him man they get the short end of the stick a lot of the time so talk to me about about Gulf why Gulf and then talk to me a bit about the Caddies no thank you very much David so you know I became a member you know gee almost 30 years ago right but I never ever played golf I mean I use the club for lifestyle purposes right so the Caddies were always a blind spot to me because I was in the Gulf right until until about 10 years ago when I decided talking about all of that a little girl let me give it a chance started playing golf some 10 years ago and then then became then I only did I become aware of the Gulf Caddies started chatting to them about tell me something about the life where you from how much money are you making you know how do you support your family and so on and I was quite surprised David that year is the reality right so when we were under British colonial rule more than a hundred years ago that's the first time that Caddies were employed were employed on golf course but you can understand that with the Brits you know during colonial rule they didn't see black people in general as full human beings right I mean to their minds I mean we were we were probably you know no better than slaves right so they just employed these guys on the basis that will allow you to come onto the golf course will allow you to carry a golf bag and you can negotiate your fee which was very paltry you know with the with the golf player so that was the system and they had no other benefits and during colonial rule that was understandable then came apartheid and nothing changed during apartheid for reasons that we all understand right so you know that system continued then came 1994 this new democratic government and they but you will remember when 1994 came the slogan of the ruling party at the time was a better life for all right yeah they haven't they haven't done so well let's be honest so it was a better life also when I started playing golf and talking to Caddies David I discovered that this system that was put in place by the Brits you know the colonialist and do it through apartheid and do it even well into the democratic era and even as I'm speaking to you today that is the system so these guys you know you know they're regardless self-employed you must take care of yourself the club don't take care of them and and really they are struggling nothing has changed for these guys since 1994 okay nothing absolutely nothing has changed they must take care of themselves and then I then started because you know I could relate to them I could relate because that's how I started my life as well like there's no bug in this you know I have to become an advocate for change and so and I and also you know I've learned over the years that you know you need to organize yourself gotta be an advocate for change to establish an organization called finding the fairway foundation that's what it's called and then I got some like-minded people together and now through the finding the fairway foundation we are now advocating for change you know we would like to see golf that is being employed by golf clubs and they must have all the benefits that you know that employees have you know in companies so I'm you know it hasn't made me very popular but you know what in any other industry maybe you say yeah well I can understand it but in the golf industry I mean there is so much money go walk into any golf club and look at all the luxury cars that are parked there look at the money we spend on golf clubs and all of that so I honestly David believe it is disgraceful you know that we find ourselves in a situation like this today through my advocacy you know I've also been working with government but you know you know there's such paralysis in government I'm afraid to say I don't know where I don't know where the interests are but you know I've not had the kind of support that I kind of anticipated but apart from all of those things while I'm busy with this advocacy to start get them better working conditions I've just recently signed an agreement to the University of South Africa and we're gonna provide you training to carries across the country you know to help them be better at the jobs and the training that we will provide also help them migrate you know from being a golf carriage to perhaps other occupations are very excited about this agreement that we have with you Lisa and I must tell you you know it's not a it's not rocket science what I'm doing but it's never been done in the entire history of golf in this country you know I've had conversations with the governing bodies in golf and they all look at me like I'm coming from another planet to be honest with you but I'm patient I'm patient I know it takes time I mean in my book one of the things I it's an African idiom that I that I refer to in the book where it says that if you want to move mountains tomorrow you must start by lifting stones today and then you know in regard to the golf carries that's what I'm doing I just lifting stones on a day-to-day basis but I'm hopeful that ultimately justice will prevail for them yeah Jeff listen I'm with you a hundred percent because I know how those poor guys struggle and very often how they get treated as well I did smile when you said that the foundation was called finding the fairways because that's something I never managed to do I was I was I was working for one of the big commercial radio stations a good number of years ago and got told that there was this celebrity golf day that I had to attend and I protested and said I'd never spent I never played golf in my life and I have shared the story before but they said eventually my advice was go to a driving range hit a bunch of balls and whatever you do when you get to the golf course please just get a caddy and I'll edit the whole story down because it was it was very very embarrassing but after hitting the balls I ended up with blistered hands got my caddy and ended up doing this celebrity golf day at the Royal Johannesburg Golf Club where apparently if you start smashing big divots out of their tea boxes they get quite grumpy eventually eventually I retired off to the ninth hole due to an injury to my pride and and on that specific day my caddy thanked me for taking him to parts of the Royal Johannesburg Golf Club he'd never seen before so that was that was my little golfing story it was it was very very very embarrassing but anyway Jeff as we wrap up now because once again I'm running out of time let's just just chat about the book where would people be able to get your book and as always I know that generally these these books are available in digital format I would still recommend getting your hands on a hard copy there's something about having a book like this in hard copy so where do we get them yeah so so David the book is available in Amazon and so one can get a Kindle version of it I mean if one scheme to read Kindle you know I read both Kindle and hard copies but our copies are available through all the you know the well-known bookstores in the country like extrusa books and bargain books and places like that and it's also available on take a lot okay good so all of the major platforms you can get it in digital version if you'd like maybe if you if you're listening to the podcast of this and you're not based in South Africa get the book okay because these are some universal truths that Jeff talks about in here and it is an incredible book Jeff before I let you go there's one last thing I'd like to I'd like to ask you because you mentioned you know you're 73 you need to retire to play more golf but yes after a book like this what's next for Jeff and Ryan yeah it's a it's really a very good question you know David I mean I deal with quite a number of themes in the book and it's only 160 pages and the feedback that I've been getting from people who've read the book you know and thankfully I mean we've sold a lot of books so far I'm very grateful people I'm getting either some people are saying urging encouraging me to take some of the themes especially around business and to we have to cite another book so they had something that I'm seriously thinking about you know about how to how to start the business how to raise the capital and how to just make those kind of business decisions to once you in the business you know how do you grow your business and all of those things so I can draw on my experience from having been a director major of major listed companies and so perhaps that might be my next project I would encourage that and I'd like to put my name down to do the first interview thank you very much David and thank you so much for having me and and for having this lovely chat in fun wonderful stuff well that wraps it up for this edition of what's involved got and get the book Jeff and Ryan unshackled my journey from the township to the boardroom as I said it wraps it up to each and every one of you look after yourselves take care and thank you for listening thanks for listening to what's involved we hope this episode inspires you to find your passion and live your dream don't forget to rate review and share the podcast and to see what's happening what's going on and what's coming follow what's involved on Facebook and Twitter and what's involved thanks again for listening