Malcolm Mooi — Entrepreneur, Educator, Ed Tech Pro

Once more, it's another edition of what's involved on, well, it's a Monday for you, if you're listening to this on the wireless, it is a Monday, because as you know, we're all doing remote work, et cetera, et cetera. This is actually being recorded on Friday. So it's the morning after the school's announcement. So in some weird and wonderful way, this is actually going to be a very interesting interview, and why, you may ask. Well, first and foremost, let me introduce you to my special guest today. He is the founder of something called zibooza.net. He's also an ed tech expert. Welcome, Malcolm Moy. How are you? David, thank you for having me. Well, thank you. Good. And it's an absolute pleasure to have you along with us. Thank you for taking the time out from what I must assume is a very, very busy time for you. Yes. In fact, since lockdown, I've probably been pushing 12, 14 hour days online education has just exploded. Wow. Okay. It sounds fascinating. And that must come with all of the challenges like the Zoom fatigue and all sorts of things. Yeah, exactly what that can be like. But tell me a little bit about Malcolm, because you seem to be, and dare I say this as somebody who's significantly growing, a younger person.

And to have the kind of knowledge that I assume you have, must mean you've worked fairly hard in your life. So give me a bit of a background as to who Malcolm is. Okay. Yeah, sure. So I think on the topic of age, I'm definitely young at heart. But if you looked at my ID book, you'd see that I'm actually 41 years old. So I have worked hard, but at the same time, I've had a lot of experience as well. So the looks can be deceiving. I guess, yeah, I started off as a computer systems engineer. And I think maybe to mention before that I was at Vets University studying a B.Com accounting will be a general degree dropped out of university and then went to Technicon and started computer science engineering. And that's really when I came into my own in terms of a place where I was excelling and something that I enjoyed that didn't feel like work. And when I graduated, I worked for an SME company that lasted seven months. I realized at that point that I did not want to work for somebody that was making all the money off my labor. And so I was defiant in saying my next job is going to be with a corporate. And I sat at home for 10 months waiting for an interview. So thank goodness for family relatives.

I got a job with a multinational technology company. And I was there for seven years and it was the best experience of my life. A lot of growth, the company was amazing, the culture was amazing. I had a lot of opportunities to travel and learn. And I had access to kind of like a global network of technologists. And after seven years, it was quite interesting. I was working on a project and it turned out to be this massive project. Eventually, I think it was worth 1.4 billion rand in the energy space. And yeah, it was interesting what happened then at the corporate level. It was like, this guy's a junior, what's he doing on this deal? Appoint somebody more senior. And I think it was the first kind of moment for me, which was basically, I've given everything to the company and the company has up until that point been very loyal to me. And it was a crossroads for me in terms of, wow, is this the place I want to be? And at that point, right? It's almost like when you're working on a corporate, you're told to sell certain things. And for the first time, I was kind of like, actually, I don't want to sell this product. I want a solution. There's much more to it than just selling a product.

And so I became this delinquent in the company. And not long, I was put on performance management. And that was also another point with just like, wow, I'm so miserable. I hate going into the office. And eventually, I decided at the end of 2009, that I was leaving corporate. And I had a choice to go to other technology companies. But I thought to myself, you know what, let me go at this on my own. And at the time, I had a friend, Arthur Anderson, not the consulting company. But he sat me down and he was kind of like, you have so much potential, why are you wasting it in a corporate? You could make a difference to people's lives. And you could make a lot of money in the process. And so yeah, that was kind of what I look back at now as my call to adventure. And nothing can prepare you for that moment. You know, at the time, it was in the energy space. And I thought to myself, you know what, I've basically architected the solution. And so we'll just wait for the tender to come out. And you know, we'll make all that money and retire on some island somewhere. But yeah, that wasn't the case. It took two more years for the tender to come out. And in that two years, I had a lot of time to myself at the time I was traveling back and forth to the US.

And you know, I think at that point, entrepreneurship wasn't really mainstream, nobody knew about it. When people asked what we do, we couldn't explain it, right. And when the tender eventually did come out, I went back to my old company and said to them, look, guys, the tender's out, are you keen to put together a proposal with me? I've maintained the relationship with the customer. And they agreed to it. And with a month's ago, we were kind of relaxed about it, because we had basically, you know, influenced quite a lot of the solutioning and the deal structure. And with two weeks ago, it was very quiet. And I come from a corporate background of tender, putting tender buds together. And I tried to contact people and nobody was returning my calls. And so, you know, I called my contact in the UK, and I could hear the minute he answered the phone and his voice that something wasn't right. And then he eventually told me that they were not going to put in a bed because they felt they had been burnt before. And you know, I suspect maybe it was just more big egos in terms of management that did not want to maybe they would rather sacrifice the deal than see me succeed. And yeah, you know, at that point, I'd gone through so much in terms of self discovery as well, you know, before that was very temperamental and impulsive and, you know, decisions that didn't go my way could, you know, literally make or break my day.

But I come through a lot. And so I basically when I had that call, I had closure, you know, and a sense of peace about me, that was just like, I accepted it, I didn't try and fight it. I didn't blame anybody. And I remember sitting at the table, you know, after that call, and the news was playing, my dad is a news fanatic. And I remember at the time they were talking about the Lompopo textbook crisis about kids that you know, it was probably six months into the year that did not have their textbooks. And it automatically at this light bulb moment, it's like, wow, why don't they just digitize textbooks and give every kid a tablet device and your problem is solved. Like in fact, I saw the whole business model flash before me, you know, I saw the product lines and everything else that went with it. And that's how I got into the education space. You know, it started off with was that and I think that speaks to kind of who I am, you know, I'm curious person, I ask questions, I look at all different types of scenarios and, you know, through these experiences of trying to find solutions, one thing that came through is that, you know, we want to make a difference in society. So it's not just about profits, it's about impact, you know, and and that's where the journey has really taken off in terms of, you know, it wasn't the energy 1.4 billion deal that was my call to adventure, it was actually kind of going through that process and at the end of it, actually realizing that, you know, my place where I want to make a difference is in the education sector.

And not surprisingly, I come from a family of educational people in education, my mom runs an early childhood development center. I've got aunts that are teachers, I've got cousins that are teachers. So yeah, I'm very passionate about human capital and human potential. And so everything I do, you know, focuses on that. And I think for me also, you know, it's about leading by example. So you know, how can I try and help education without necessarily educating myself and learning about, you know, what works, what doesn't work. I was very average at school, I just barely, you know, passed. And I really only excelled at the tertiary level when I started computer science and, you know, started to believe that, hey, actually I am capable of achieving excellence. So it's been a lifelong journey of learning, unlearning, refining who I am, evolving. And that in itself has been my journey too, in terms of, you know, when I was in corporate, I was a sales specialist or technology specialist. When I went into my own, in the business sense, you know, in a corporate, you've got a whole structure of people, marketing, legal, finance, et cetera. But when you go out on your own, you have to take on all these different skills and learnings, you know, in terms of how do you market yourself?

How do you make sure the money you're making stays in the company without losing? And it's a very different type of education. You know, you hurt a lot, you bump your head, you lose, and it's like you don't want to make those mistakes because you are limited in resources and capital, right? So you've got to learn very fast. And so you learn to confront yourself, which I think is something, a skill, you know, that is very important is you can try things and convince yourself. I think your mind entertains you in terms of, you know, convincing you that something is right. And if you just push it, keep pushing it, it's going to happen. But when you're an entrepreneur, you know, you've got to let go of your ego and realize that sometimes when you do things and it's not working, it's not that thing. It's probably you that's doing something wrong and you've got to adjust it. Otherwise you fail. And so yeah, it's about developing those skill sets. But over the years, I've realized that, you know, I don't know, people say, my mom always says that she says, not everybody's like you. And I said, that's not fair, because I feel like, you know, there's nothing special about me. But somehow through my experiences, and you know, the practical application of just applying different things that I've been able to kind of, you know, see how do you develop yourself as a person.

So I've learned how to market myself. I've learned about legal, you know, when I started, I looked at legal contracts, I was like, wow, I don't understand any word this is, but then you burn once, you know, because somebody catches you out on a close and you realize, oh, my goodness, you know, I need to so I speak to lawyers and read through contracts and say to them, well, you know, what's this about? And what does this mean? And that explained to me, like, if you do this, this is the implications. And over the years, I've built up a skill realm. I'm not an expert lawyer, but I can look at a contract and be like, okay, this clause is, you know, not gonna work, we need to adjust it. We've looked at finances, you know, money coming in money going out, and the whole idea is obviously how do you keep most of it and reinvest it back and pay yourself. And that's been the journey for me, as an individual, there's no separation in terms of the work I do in my life, it's a lifestyle for me. And I'm all about ideas, I'm all about, you know, uplifting people. And I think maybe evident to that is in 2017, I published a book, a memoir of sorts. It's called Indigo Child, Chasing Dreams Money Can't Buy.

And that also documents kind of the experience, the journey growing up in South Africa, the different experiences and influence and moments, you know, in my life that influence various things and also speaks to the projects I'm working on. So when you look at something like Cebuza and what it is today, you know, I give you really behind the scenes, like a raw view of, you know, the influences and it's not perfect. You know, a lot of people look at me today and tell me that, you know, I've inspired them, you know, and look at the energy and stuff, but, you know, it didn't start that way. I've always been this reluctant person, you know, skeptical person, I had to fight a lot of demons as well, and it's been quite a journey. And so you noticed earlier, I mentioned my call to adventure. And that's also, you know, based on on this blueprint that I'm living, which is the work of Joseph Campbell, a hero's journey, you know, and so I think that for me is also speaks to my spiritual nature, which which is basically this mythology of, you know, throughout time, all societies, we've had these moments of call to adventures, you know, where somebody feels something's not right, you know, in society.

And you know, there's all these kind of opportunities where they can answer that, but they typically are reluctant until something pushes them or forces them to make that jump or decision. You know, and once you do that, you enter this world, which is different to reality, you know, in terms of what you experience, different rules that you play by. And what's interesting is you always find the right people, the mentors, the coaches, the people that prepare you for your journey. And and, you know, those moments are really special, it's it's almost serendipitous in terms of just the right people coming into your space at the right time. It seemed very weird. Yeah, exactly. Spooky. Sorry, Malcolm, it's just, you know, listening to you speak, it's very clear how passionate you are and your and your background and just the kind of things you're saying that the story of the hero's journey and, you know, one of my beliefs is come at the time, come at the teacher. And and, you know, I think we are moving more and more towards this holistic kind of integrated lifestyle thing and, you know, you talked about serendipity. There was a there's a friend of mine or coincidence is a friend of mine. And one of my mentors, he always used to say, coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.

So very, very, very interesting. When we come back, though, I'd like us to move on to a little bit more about the boozer.net and why you founded it. What is it? What does it do, et cetera, et cetera. So we'll talk a little bit more about that when we come back. It is what's involved. And my special guest is Malcolm Moy. And we're back. What's involved with my special guest, Malcolm Moy, founder of the boozer.net. He's also an edtech expert. Welcome. It's I mean, I've got to get the book. Let's just start there because it sounds fascinating. I was I was sitting here and I'm riveted. In fact, that I even forgot to look at what the term was. But what's the boozer.net? I mean, how did somebody, you know, how did you get the idea and what is it? Okay. So I remember earlier I was chatting to you about my corporate experience where I had access to a global internet of experts. And so when I went on my own and I went into the education space, initially it was to digitize textbooks and provide every kid with a tablet device. But when I went into schools, I was like, okay, wow, you know, it was very different to what I expected. And one of the things that I picked up, which I still, you know, it's still one of the pillars that we we build on today is that there is no culture of sharing and collaboration in the education system.

So if you look at the different stakeholders, teachers, for example, right, the driving force behind learning, there's over 500,000 teachers across the country. Teachers don't speak to each other as you would have thought, you know, they're not sharing best practice on scale, they're not, you know, sharing lesson plans for preparation. They're not sharing different types of activities that you could do, you know, to facilitate learning, you know, and teachers work in isolation, it is actually quite interesting, you know, in those early days when we sat down and we just spoke to teachers to find out, you know, what it's like in the day of a teacher. And you know, in my previous lives, I was also a computer literacy teacher working with kids and adults. And I think that served me very well, because you know, I knew that kids automatically took to technology, you know, it was, it was the learning curve was so steep for them in terms of all the grasp of it, right. But you know, when I worked with adults, I was like, wow, it was pulling teeth from chicken, it was just like, so, so painful and difficult. So I anticipated, you know, the reluctance from adults. And it was no surprise then for teachers, you know, we're kind of like, no, I've been doing this, you know, this way for all these years.

And so there's no reason for me to change, I don't understand. You know, we go into schools, various schools, you know, you have well funded independent schools and we go into schools in Soweto. And it was pretty much similar in terms of culture, where, you know, teachers had these files that they would come in under their arms, and they'd speak about how proud they are about, you know, the lessons and what they've done over the years. And, you know, I'd say to them, is it fine if I take your file with me for the weekend, you know, and they'd be like, nope, you got to come and sit with me. And I thought to myself, think about that for a second, like, teachers are willing to share information. I had to sit with them and kind of copy their notes or and stuff, but they wouldn't give you their files. And if you think about it over a lifetime, you know, teachers leaving the system and all of that knowledge and experience that's lost with them, you know, and then it was also the behavioral stuff where it's kind of like, I'm a teacher and I'm like, I don't want to share my notes with David because David's lazy and stuff like that, you know, or David's associated with a different union, so is the enemy, you know.

And so I thought it was okay, these are like interesting facets of being a teacher. But then when we started to engage other stakeholders, it was kind of something similar. So when you go into the Department of Basic Education, there's the national and provincial levels. And even there, it's kind of like, wow. So national sets out programs and policies, but provinces are autonomous. And so they get the budgets and they spend it accordingly. So you might say the department nationally says, you know what, guys, we need like a national platform to host all our resources. But once it's a provincial level, every province says the Western Cape, I want to do my own e-portal. Hauteng, I'm building my own e-portal. And national has no real kind of power to do anything about it because the provinces are autonomous. And so we saw those types of dynamics play out and there's some interesting ones as well. You know, just from a political nature, I might get into trouble for this, but I'm a risk taker, so I'm going to share this with you. You know, so when you look at politics, right, and deployment, you could have somebody in the ANC that is quite senior politically within the ANC party, right? But then the deploy at a like education level is lower than that person.

But then in the actual like employment, the person that's in the department is higher than the person that's in that within the ANC. And so you find that dynamic of, like, you know, paralysis where people don't necessarily want to do things or take chances because they don't want to upset the person that's the superior in the other on the other side of the fence. I don't know if that makes sense, but these are the types of dynamics that are just like crazy because it's got nothing to do with education, but politics, right? But yet it's impacting decisions because, you know, nobody wants to upset the apple cart or do career limiting moves. And so these are the things we picked up. And as we went from, you know, those stakeholders to other stakeholders, there was there were also more kind of, you know, complex dynamics at play, which which was just kind of like, wow, there's a lot of fragmentation and silo driven efforts. And that's really where Zebuza was born, is what we really just wanted to do was create a platform where we could connect all the different stakeholders with a focal point on teachers because teachers drive learning. And so what could we do there in terms of their continuous teacher professional development?

One of the other things we picked up as well, which I think is very relevant as you said today about this whole integrated way of life and learning is the holistic educator support. So, you know, when you look at the adversity that teachers need to face, you know, how can we support them emotionally, socially? You know, we saw some instances as well. And this is where the department is amazing, like, you know, the e-learning white paper, I think of 2007, a policy document, that's ultimately what influenced what Zebuza is today. So it's not like government doesn't know what to do. I think we just have challenges with implementation. We basically built Zebuza off of that white paper. And then we looked at other research that was coming out, you know, teachers were leaving in large numbers over a short period of space and, you know, when the department looked into it, what they found was that brokers were going into schools and convincing teachers to cash in on their pensions and then misinforming them and telling them, you know, that they can come back into the system two years later. So you're seeing like 20, 30,000 teachers leaving the system, you know, for pensions, which is bad advice, right?

But it has an impact on the system. And then they did some studies as well, which found that teacher absenteeism is linked to like alcohol, which is linked to financial duress. So teachers don't know how to budget, save and waste. There's always fights with like, you know, teachers going on strike, teachers don't get paid enough. And that's not always necessarily true, you know, but if you don't know how to budget and save, I don't think any money you have is enough for you, right? But what teachers would do then under duress is turn to alcohol, teacher absenteeism goes up and learning performance goes down because teachers are not in class on a Friday and a Monday. And so we looked at that and thought, you know, how do we bring other stakeholders into this community where we can provide these types of support services? And then the final bullet is appreciation, you know, we look at it and as I said, teachers are the driving force bank learning, you know, teachers, a stony profession that, you know, gives birth to all these other professions. And so we said, you know, how do we take time out to really just appreciate teaching and how do we elevate the status of teachers in our society?

And that's where Cebuza was born. I think on our part, it was also better understanding, you know, how government operates our public education system. And here's something interesting that not many people tend to look at, you know, government gets a lot of criticism for what they do. But when you think about education, right, and you think about the fact that the biggest portion of GDP goes towards education. Corporate social investment spends up to eight billion rand a year, 40 percent of that going to education. And so, you know, when you compare us to other countries, we invest quite the significant amount of money in our education. But when you look at the results, you're kind of like, OK, why is the performance and the education so low? And that was something that boggled me for years, right, until I found out that, you know, the Department of Basic Education feeds up to nine million kids a day. Think about that. They transport up to eight million kids, if not more, a day. If you look at the infrastructure involved, there's not much money that actually gets spent on education. It's all the logistics around the business education that, you know, takes quite a lot of the fiscus.

And so for me, that was very, you know, important in me realizing as well that government is not the enemy. And actually they are trying their best and, you know, initially when we worked, we did not engage with government and eventually I contacted them. It was I'll never forget. It was a Sunday. You know, as an entrepreneur, you don't have days of the week anymore time. So I sent out a message on Sunday and I thought to myself, you know what? It's an info box. Nobody's going to get back to its government. And I was pleasantly mistaken. One day morning, first thing, I was contacted by the department, I was given the details of the gentleman that heads up the partnership directorate and it was quite an interesting engagement as well. You know, he sent me an email, he said, look, we're very busy, we get a lot of requests, sent me an email with a few paragraphs about what you want to do and if it's good, I'll get back to you. If not, you know, don't take it personal, which is quite busy. And so I sent him an email and the guy phoned me back and I was like, OK, wow, this is amazing, like you need to come in and see me. And I've been blessed, I've been fortunate to meet wonderful people within the department in various structures, you know, really capable people as well, you know, that's just trying to make a difference.

But when you think about kind of where a lot of the time and energy and money gets spent around transport and food, you know, I would dare to say like, show me any other organization that feeds up to nine million people a day or has to transport eight million people a day, you know, before they even get to the education matters. So, you know, that was quite interesting. Zebusa itself has been an interesting journey and it's kind of like a mix of education and entrepreneurship. Right. So the first version of Zebusa, it took us two years to build in terms of like, I didn't have the money to fund it, I didn't have the technology capabilities to do it at the time. So I linked up with a company in America and I went to them, I flew out, you know, and before that corporate paid for all my travel and so it was cool. But then I had to pay for my own travels, like going to the US and I'm like, OK, wow, this is an investment. So I flew out to the US, I met the CEO that side and I shared with him, you know, what it is I want to do. And so we signed up a partnership, I came back and I'm like, OK, cool, I've got a technology partner and I just need to go and sell and so I contacted a private bank and I was like, you know, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing.

And they were cool coming in and see us and, you know, from that first engagement, it took us two years to secure funding for us to actually build our prototype, which wasn't even ours, it was kind of the American company's, you know, software. And so that was also a good lesson to learn. And then we worked with a local company because the idea was you've got the social networking platform, right, that's driven by social interactions. And one of the things that was innovative that we did was we looked at those social interactions. So, you know, uploading, downloading, view, shares, comments, rating, reviews. And we said, OK, we can add points to this, right. And through that points, we can start to influence behavior because we want the teachers to start sharing their resources. And so we found a local company here to do rewards. And the idea was that if you, David, were sharing your lesson plans with us at the end of the month, you could stand a chance to become teacher of the month. And with that, there's a prize, right. And the corporate partner gave us 50,000 rand, right. And so we designed the program, we rolled it out, we had a soft launch, we started signing up people and after the first month, we kind of like, OK, cool, these are top contributing teachers.

And so after six months, right, you kind of like, teachers are not claiming these prizes. One guy in the Western Cape had, I think, six thousand rand with us. And so I found him, I'm like, you know what, we noticed you have this, is it something difficult in terms of the system or you're not able to claim and he said to me, you know what, I don't actually, I'm not motivated by money, so you can donate that money to a worthy cause, but I really appreciate the recognition you've been giving me. So what we were doing is we would take the same teacher of the month, we put them on our monthly newsletter, send that out to our distribution list and we would also post it on our social media platforms. And guys were printing this out and showing it to the HODs and district officials and principals and said, look, I've been featured on this professional network of teachers. And so that was also interesting because at that time, right, my one, the local provider for the rewards, they hit me with an invoice of over 50,000 rand, I was like, OK, where is this coming from? And they said, no, it's part of the VAT that you owe us. And I was like, guys, this is an all inclusive project. So, you know, this throws the budget out.

And at that stage, it's so but ignorance on my side, because I'm thinking I've got this private bank that's backing me. So it's not anything, you know, 50K, it's not, you know, a lot for them. But when I go back to my sponsor, they kind of like, nope, just because we're a private bank doesn't mean we're going to just give money out, you know, go back to supply and tell them that, you know, there's no more money for this project, at least for this financial year. And so I go back and I'm kind of like, guys, this is the situation, are you happy to wait until next year? So, you know, we can pay the money, you know, it's not that we don't want to pay, it's just that we can't pay right now. And so initially, the guys agreed with me. But then several months later, they came back, and I think their financial year end was August. And they're like, you know what, actually, we need you to pay this now. And my guys, nothing's changed, they still no additional money coming in. And then it just became unpleasant, like the guys were hounding me to pay, they wanted me to sign an acknowledgement of debt. And I was just like, wow, you know, at that point, you know, the money that was allocated to us, and this also speaks to kind of entrepreneurship and the sacrifices you have to make, as always the best decisions, but at the time, right, is like, we've been given this pot of money, and I spent all the money on the two suppliers, like I had no money for myself, right.

And the rewards company, they paid me like a 10 grand rebate, you know, for the business I brought them. You know, when you think about it, like half a million grand, 10,000 grand that goes to you, the rest of the money is going to somebody else. And now you have these problems where guys are even pushing for more money. And I must admit, like emotionally and mentally, I just wasn't coping, right. I was like hustling to put petrol in my car, just so I could get to meetings. I was like, you know, looking at airtime, prioritizing airtime over clothing. So yeah, it just wasn't. That sounds exactly, you know, we often see with entrepreneurs, and I'm in that same sort of field as well. You see the success story, but I mean, for you now, just sharing some of those stories, I'm thinking to myself, I can relate, I've been there, I've been there, you know. If people looked at some of the clothes I wore, and to a degree I still do, I keep my best clothes for when I have meetings or when I have to go out. And the rest of the time you worry about little trivial things like airtime, food, a roof over your head. It's one of those amazing things. We are chatting to my special guest, Malcolm Moy. Malcolm, when we come back, I'd like to chat a little bit more, just to wrap up with what Zabooza is.

But now, the main thing that I'd like us to finish with is, what on earth is happening with online learning, education, schools closing, et cetera, et cetera. So when we come back, we will discuss that a little bit more with my special guest, Malcolm Moy. It is what's involved. We are back. We're wrapping it up. Time flies. I mean, Malcolm, I could speak to you for a very long time about this stuff. I'm so passionate about education, and I believe it's one of the things that, you know, we build the future of the country on good education. And I believe teachers are very much unsung heroes, and I, for one, believe that they should get paid quite a lot more than what they do. But we know that's not always possible. So, Malcolm, essentially, Zabooza.net is, is it like a portal or a group where teachers get together and they share knowledge? Yeah, it's a social networking platform. So I guess if you had to use, like, analogies, you could say it's a Facebook for educators, a Twitter for educators, a LinkedIn for educators. What we've done is essentially looked at, you know, best of breed products and says, you know, what's working? We're not here to reinvent the wheel. You know, what works well, you know, was platforms like Facebook.

And what are some of the negative, you know, aspects of it? And so we've looked at that, and we kind of looked at how do we digitize processes? So for teachers, you know, in the day-to-day kind of analog world of in-classroom teaching, what if we digitize that, right? And by digitization, you introduce certain automation and efficiencies that increases a teacher's productivity. And so, you know, that's what Zabooza is. It's a website. Currently, we will be launching an app in the future. It's available as a website through Zabooza.net, Z-I-B-U-Z-A.net. And essentially, yeah, it's a social networking platform where teachers can connect with other teachers, they get access to resources like lesson plans, classroom activities, past exam papers and memos, textbooks, posters, study guides, et cetera. They support groups and forums that you can become part of that's either based on subject grade or interest. We've got partners, you know, the likes of Hallard, Maths@Sharp, PaperVideo, Ziavula, you know, an endless list of organizations that all have a vested interest in education. And you know, even things like the emotional and social intelligence stuff I was talking about, we've got organizations like Deliver and Explorare, you know, and then guys like Hallard who have come on board providing financial literacy and support.

We've even got a motivational speaker, Darren August, from the writer of a teacher changed my life. And he goes around the country speaking to teachers and uplifting them, reminding them about the noble profession, and he's pretty amazing. And so it's wonderful to have him in the community as well, you know, just inspiring teachers and motivating them, reminding them why they went into the profession in the first place. I think that's absolutely brilliant. And the whole concept of lifelong learning, even if you're a teacher, doesn't mean you've stopped learning. And I think that is so, so important. Malcolm, as I said at the beginning of this interview, we're talking about this on Friday, the show's going to air on a Monday. But last night, being Thursday night, the president made some announcements, schools are closing, etc, etc, sometimes for a week, other times for a month. We're not going to talk about the politics around that. But in terms of the educators, the teachers, and in terms of pupils, how are they reacting to this? I mean, it, you know, teachers, and if you think about a lot of teachers, and it may be my experience, because, you know, I was in school when Captain Morgan was only a lieutenant.

But it was a long time ago, but some of the teachers then were very stuck in their ways. And it resonated with me when you were saying, you know, they don't share lesson plans, they don't do this, they don't do that. It's very much they did keep things, how are they coping with this digital trend? And I would imagine the students are going, yeah, okay, we get this, because, you know, the youngsters are used to this kind of stuff, but the teachers must be battling. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's quite interesting and funny, right, because I suppose if you interview me in the next five to ten years time, and you ask me, like, what was that pivotal moment, you know, that changed things that got this platform up and running and, you know, made it grow. I'm gonna say COVID-19, man, because like, we've been preaching this for the last five years, if not more, you know, before the before our proof of concept. And you know, you go to schools and you say to teachers, like, this is what it means. And this is what it's going to enable. These are the opportunities it's going to unlock. And teachers are like, yes, yes, yes. And then you leave there. And just like, nothing happens, like, guys, don't sign up if they do sign up, they don't contribute.

And, you know, that's one of the things I've been wary about is like human behavior. And like, okay, why do you say one thing, but you don't do it and stuff. And that's what we've been experiencing. And then COVID-19 comes along, and all of a sudden, teachers who were reluctant or hesitant are now forced to go digital, because it's the only way, you know, that they can connect and engage. And so, you know, we've seen this. And I think that's also, you know, the role that we're playing in terms of how do we support teachers that are coming on online for the first time or frustrated, who don't know. And I suppose also when you look at it in the bigger scheme of things, right, this is the challenge with the well-funded independent schools and your public school, quintile one, two, three schools in rural areas is it's very different worlds, right. So, you know, your teachers in the well-funded schools are now coming online, having problems of having to go digital, and it's a big learning curve and stressful. And all the teachers I know in this, you know, environment, they're actually embracing it. They're saying, oh, I didn't know this, or like, wow, this happened, you know. So there's I think a lot of light bulb moments going on.

But it's more because, you know, they have no other choice, you know, it's when you don't have a choice, you kind of go with it. And then I think they're starting to realize all the benefits of having technology as an enabler. And I say that, you know, intentionally and purposefully in terms of technology is not the solvable that's going to solve our problems, but it is an enabler and it's a tool. And if you use it well, you know, it opens up all these types of efficiencies, you'll increase your productivity, you'll feel good because you're connecting with people. You know, during lockdown, we've had teachers come onto the platform and we have a weekly call. Initially, it was every evening at 8pm. And we would just come in and teachers give them a space to vent about, like, what's happening, what are they concerned about, you know. And through that venting, we actually felt better on the call. And I made it a rule that, you know, for the first half an hour, we could vent all we want, but we had to end off the call with something positive, you know, an opportunity or what's working or what was interesting or what tool or application is one of the teachers using, you know, that other teachers could benefit from.

And so we've built up this really, like, close community of teachers, you know, and even from our side, you know, we involve them in our development process where they're influencing our product roadmap, because we're not just developing what we think teachers need or learners need. We're basically asking teachers, like, what do you think or where do you think we could improve, you know, certain teaching and learning practices. And so our users are directly influencing our product roadmap. But I think, you know, right now and what the president's done and where we are, I mean, for me, it's quite a concern in terms of the digital divide and the inequality. I think, you know, before COVID, there was huge inequalities in our education system. And I think COVID has just exposed it even more, you know, in terms of those who have and those who don't. And, you know, research has shown that, you know, this time that kids are missing out, you know, it could have lifetime consequences in terms of being disadvantaged. And so as the president pointed out, you know, we're looking at generations that, you know, are going to lose out because of shutting down. So, you know, but again, let's focus on the opportunities.

Let's look at what is wrong, what is the fragility in our education system. And you know, our viewpoint is how do we recover from COVID, you know, and how do we look to build resilience into our education system so that it is more inclusive and equitable in terms of, you know, should we have a second wave of COVID or another pandemic in the coming years? How do we ensure that, you know, our educators are equipped, that they trained and that learners have access, you know, one to devices and the other thing is to data, you know, so that our education isn't disrupted. So if we have to have a lockdown for another three to six months, that learning can still continue. But you know, when you talk about that resilience and maybe conclude with this is, you know, what are the opportunities not to incrementally improve education, but how can we shift the paradigm and fundamentally change our education system? And you know, some of the things we're thinking about is the analogy of how do you consume entertainment? You know, for example, you know, your radio show is a podcast you should and people can ingest this differently. They can watch it on Monday when you ate or they can watch it in a week or a month's time.

You know, it's always going to be there for them to consume. And when you look at things like Snapchats and Instagrams and TikToks, you know, this is the way the kids are consuming content. There's no longer a need to wait for somebody to tell you what to watch and when to watch it. You know, you can basically choose, in fact, you know, it's moving away from the content creation model where, you know, studios were producing content, where now it's a user-based content generation. Guys are posting, you know, I look at my nephews and nieces, they're following guys and they're creating content, you know, so they also participate in co-creating. And when we think about education model, you know, it's still very outdated in the sense that, you know, what are we learning? Why are we learning? And I think, you know, the future of education looks very different, feels very different. You know, I think it's a case of, you know, how do we get learners curious about the education? How do we get rid of this whole assessment of pass and fail? Because, you know, that culture doesn't mimic real life. You know, it's about, you know, how do we take learners on a learning journey and a pathway? Were we able to gather evidence and show them?

It's like, OK, you're at the beginner level, you're at an advanced level, you're at an intermediate level or actually you're at the mastery level. And what does that mean for all of those different learning parts? We look at teachers and, you know, what is their job roles in terms of instructor, facilitator, data analyst. We're looking at situations where, you know, how can we get teachers the tools to publish their classrooms? So, you know, teachers to make a living, can we get them to publish their lessons online? So a teacher, a parent comes into a community or a learner and they get to choose from a marketplace of teachers, they're not limited to a location or classroom anymore. You know, teachers are able to publish their lessons. Parents can buy it on a transactional basis. I can buy just one lesson because that's what I need for my learner as a parent. Or I can subscribe to your channel, you know, your classroom, because I actually love it and my kid is engaged and loves it. Or can we access, you know, sponsorship through corporate social investment so that the kids who don't have, you know, the disposable income to afford that, you know, can get access to it. And so these are opportunities.

That's probably going to be a whole another discussion in terms of the access and stuff because for a long time now, a long time, I've been a huge favor of the corporate zero rating education daughter. I've been a huge fan, okay. And I've tried to I've tried to get that done because, you know, my background being being radio and the power of radio and people can listen to radio all over the place. But most people have got even the basic cell phones these days, not even the smart ones, but the ones just before that they can pick up audio, you know, you can get it. But I mean, you know, if you're in the most rural of rural areas, you might have a cell phone and you will probably it'll be a pay as you go and you're probably not going to use that air time for education because you never know if there's an emergency which you need to use it for. So I'm a big fan of zero rating daughter got to say that I'm not going to I'm sure we're going to check more. Unfortunately, we've gone way over. We run out of time, but it's been an absolute pleasure to have a tattoo zibuza.net zibuza.net. Is this available? Is this only for teachers or anybody that's in the teaching or related industries? Interestingly, when we started out, it was for teachers and organizations, right?

But what I long suspected was that we had learners and parents that were signing up to the community. And so as of the 1st of June, we've actually created functionality now where when you register on zibuza.net, you can choose a role, either a parent role or a learner role or an organization role or a teacher role. So it's for all stakeholders in the basic education system. Fantastic stuff. Welcome. Thank you. I know that you're very busy. You're taking the time out to have a chat today. Thank you so much. We wish you all the best. May zibuza go from strength to strength. Once again, it's zibuza.net. My special guest has been Malcolm Murray. Welcome to go well. Thank you, David.