Tramayne Monaghan — The Shepherd And The Beast

Once again, it is what's involved. Great to have you along with us. Special guest tonight, somebody I've been looking forward to having a chat to and finding out a little bit more about who he is and what makes him tick. Who is he? He is Tremaine Monaghan, author of a great book called The Shepherd and the Beast. Hello Tremaine, how are you?

Hi David, thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Wonderful stuff. So this, before we dive into anything else, and I want to look into this book, was brilliant. It's fascinating. It's interesting. It's about the hero's journey for leaders. And I want to get into more of the title, et cetera, et cetera, a little later on. But let's start off with who is Tremaine. Tell me a little bit about your background, what led you to where you are now. And then we'll get into the book and what made you want to write a book. Yeah, sure. Thanks David. I'm raised in Port Elizabeth on the coast and decided for my sins to become a chartered accountant. I really thought it would be an exciting career and it gave me some upward trajectory in life. And to that it did, it gave me a lot of opportunities. But all through the journey of doing my articles and Deloitte and PE and moving internally to Cape Town and then finding a technology company, I kept having this feeling that the numbers just weren't enough. And I guess that really speaks to the progression eventually to the book. Humanizing myself from a numbers guy to running teams and then in the end writing a book. So I think that journey of my career from accountant to manager to leader to author is really where the book started.

Okay. And you know what I found fascinating right from the start, because I've been saying this for a while now and every time I talk to somebody on the show that does whatever in the business world, whatever it is, they tend to agree with me is that I feel, and particularly since COVID and COVID hit, I feel we are becoming more human. And it's more about humanity. And as you said, you know, being you discovering you as opposed to just the numbers, has that been something that has become apparent on your journey? Absolutely. You know, I think we've gone through this, this interesting time in history where we've found a multitude of ways to divide us as a species. You know, we, we are very quick to find the things that make us different and stand behind those things. And I think COVID was the great level for a lot of people. And I think people started to understand that we're all feeling the same struggles during COVID. We were all locked down in, you know, very similar ways, no matter your race, your creed, your gender, etc. And we faced this battle together. And I think that drive during COVID away from separateness and to more towards togetherness really amplified our humanity. And I see that across a lot of people that I speak to and people who reach out to me, not just about the book, but also in my mentoring and, and my coaching, people are just saying, I realized my life wasn't all about work. It was also about who I am and my family and my friends and my relationships. So this drive towards humanity has been amplified. And it's interesting because it happened at the same time that technology obviously is driving us towards technology. And I think that the juxtaposition between going to a tech only world and this new hyper humanity, I think that's the right approach in balancing it. Which is fantastic, because, you know, depending on who you speak to, we are either entering the fourth industrial revolution, we're in the middle of it, or it's passed us by and we're starting with the fifth industrial revolution. And people hear industrial revolution. And immediately they go, we're up, rise of the machines. We are going to lose our jobs. The future sucks. I don't believe that. So in terms of the book, though, the hero's journey, as soon as I read the hero's journey, I thought, aha, because one of the things that I label myself as is a storyteller. And a lot of our history and a lot of things that were passed down has been through stories. And in those stories, the best stories are about the hero and their journey. So why did you decide on the hero's journey specifically for leaders? And I want you to define what leadership is for you.

Sure. I think, you know, talking about COVID, I went through the stage of, I guess, introspection. I was very fortunate, and, you know, life has played a really big part in this, to have grown quite quickly in my career. Obviously, hard work has to be put in and meet the luck at the right time to amplify things. And I grew quite quickly through my career. And, you know, I was leading a variety of teams and COVID struck. And I thought to myself, you know, how did I get here? How did I become this perceived leader or this mentor to X, Y, and Z? And I kind of cast myself back all the way to when I was a young boy, and thinking through my leadership journey, which is atypical. I think, in my regard, I was saying to myself, I wasn't born with biological traits of leadership. And I speak in the book about guys that are extroverts and girls that exude confidence and being able to speak, you know, natural orators, etc. I wasn't any of that. And I was thrust into a leadership position, because I was good at a sport, you know, in the junior leagues, if you're a good cricketer, they'll say, well, if you're a good cricketer, you're a good cat, which is a fallacy. And I was thrust into these positions and me casting myself back, looking at this going, hang on, leadership hasn't come naturally to me. It has been the step progress. There is a journey there of ups and downs to me facing troughs during my leadership journey, as well as highs. What does that look like? And that's where the hero's journey was born.

As you said, the hero's journey is well scripted as a as a storytelling mechanism. And I wanted to use that as an overarching theme, coupled with my love of history and mythology, and these great stories of heroes, beasts and wizards really bring out my whole nerd. And so that's really how the genesis of the book was formed through this retrospective look on my life and leadership. And I think to your second piece of your question about leadership and how I see it is, it's not about our title. It's not about position. It's not about how many people listen to you or you guide. It's really a privilege. And it's something that's given to us as a human species to take on and grow within. And it's really about the other people around us and not us. It's this weird place to be where you have to grow in order to help someone else. And you're not trying to grow for your own needs. And I think that's what leadership really is for me. It's the ability to influence, it's the ability to make someone feel safe. And it's all these typical things we tell ourselves about guiding and growing, but it's at the real core of it. It is, how can I be better for someone else? Yeah. Because one of the things that you state, and well, two points. The first point is, don't worry about your releasing your inner nerd.

I'm almost the chairman of the Nerds Association. I am probably the nerdiest of nerds packaged in somebody who comes across as rough, tough, and doesn't give a damn. But definitely the nerdiest of nerds. And if it involves wizards and witches and dragons, I'm right there. So here's the first part. The interesting part as well is the fact that a lot of people think if you're in a leadership position, that's it. And I feel that once you start on this path and this hero's journey for yourself, whatever it may be, it's continual growth. Because as I figured out in my life, the more I learn, the less I realize I know. Are you of that opinion? 100%. I think if you look at Eastern teachings on wisdom and intelligence, they say they're inversely proportional. The smarter you get, the less wise you become, because you know too much. It's about bringing yourself back to the core and understanding humanity versus understanding facts. And the journey and why I chose the journey as well for the book is it is continuous. You don't go through it, meet the shepherd, defeat the beast, and stop. You don't reach 25 and reach the pinnacle. It's about continuously going on a journey over and over and over again. And the hero's journey is a great image for that because we've used it for so many stories over our time. And it's a continuous story. The same hero will go through a multitude of journeys. And that's what we want to do. We want to keep growing, keep pushing each time, learn one little thing here. I always say to my partner, and I always have a conversation at the beginning of the year, we don't do New Year's resolution. All we want to do is be slightly better at the end of the year. And we leave it very open-ended. It doesn't matter what it is in or what part of ourselves are better, but as long as every year you're a little bit better than when you started it, that's the journey. Incremental adds up to mass change.

Yeah, that's the whole thing. It's a concept of the 1% improvement, which is, to me, quite brilliant. Now, the title of the book is The Shepherd and the Beast. Why did you choose Shepherd and the Beast? I guess it goes back to the stories we tell. We tell these stories to our children. We tell these stories through movies and books. And the hero always has this sort of guide, someone to take him on their journey, someone to take her through the difficult times and to cross the threshold. And that's where the Shepherd comes out, the most stereotypical of all images in terms of a guide, a globally. And then the Beast is just a summarization of the monsters and the difficult people and the hardcore people that we meet along the way. And so, they really are just images that have populated in my mind of so many of the leaders that I've met and also the leaders that people have come and spoken to me about. And they're summarized in those two kinds of archetypes. Yeah, wonderful. Also, the Beast can be your own monsters, your own internal monsters in 100% in terms of growth. My special guest is Tremaine Monaghan. He is the author of The Shepherd and the Beast. This is what's involved, back with more from Tremaine in just a bit. And we're back. What's involved with my guest, Tremaine Monaghan, author of The Shepherd and the Beast? Now, what I liked about the book, Tremaine, aside from the title and all of those bits and pieces and it being about, it's a book for leaders. But as I said, we define leadership differently. In the old days, a leader was like the general manager, the CEO, your immediate superior. These days, you don't need a title to be a leader. And leadership takes many different forms, does it not?

100%. I mean, at the very core of it, leadership is about impact. Can you impact another human soul? And that could be one. I think I say in the book, it could literally be that you have a trusted relationship with someone and they come and seek your advice continually because they think you're wise or that you're experienced. That is leadership. You're using your experience to guide someone else. There's no title involved. There's no plaudits. It's just about how can you be there for someone else? And that's what leadership is. Can we bring people through? Can we grow people through our own experience? We've all got unique experiences and how can they play well with someone else? So as you said, the title is absolutely irrelevant. Through these conversations I've had with people, I've had people tell me about CEOs, big listed companies who are absolutely terrible at leadership because they don't even know their staff's name. They don't guide. They don't inspire. They're just there. And that is not leadership. Even though they have the title and they have the privilege, they're still not leading. And I think that's the interesting piece. It really is a privilege at the end of the day.

Well, this is the thing. And I've noticed as well, there's some people in our country, South Africa specifically, that I would look to and I would go, those are incredible leaders. And then there are others that I've come across and they're still stuck in years gone by where it's this total authoritarian approach. And you will be sitting at your desk at eight o'clock and you will only leave at five o'clock. And the person doesn't have any... It's not about the person that you become a number. And I think that's part of where this rising sort of realization of our humanity is starting to cause problems and problems in the workplace, and particularly for leaders who are not ready for this because people are starting to stand up now and go, "Hang on a second. Hold on. I'm not just a number. You don't just pay me." I remember the one person that I worked for for a little bit of time. I don't play well in the sand with other children, so I prefer running my own business. But I was helping him out and started out doing some consultancy and then joined the group of companies. And the one day I was saying something and he turned around to me and he goes, "Why do you expect me to say thank you for doing your work? You don't thank me for paying your salary." So naturally, in the time I had left there, I went and thanked him for my salary every month. But that is the way that a lot of people still to this day work in this country.

And there's a whole lot of unhappiness. Have you picked that up? Because I've even noticed now, now that we're in this kind of no man's land of COVID and people are expected to go back to work, that in itself is causing all sorts of ruckions and tremors. Well, you see, it's quite an interesting thing because when this all first started coming to the fore, pre-COVID was this general sentiment about the millennial worker. The millennial worker was not happy. They were difficult to manage because they didn't want to be in the office at 8 am because they could stand up and tell you, "I don't work best at 8 am." The millennial wanted perks and to be able to have a standing desk for the first time. And I spent a lot of time... Well, it's actually one of the most commonly kind of asked questions to me on LinkedIn from companies and brands is, "How do we deal with this new age of work from a millennial and a leadership point of view?" And it's shifted now because COVID has opened the gates, right? COVID has said, again, the great leveller, "Oh, the millennials were very quick to stand up and say they would like to work from home and we thought they were crazy, but you know what? I'm a boomer and I also want to work from home because I get to pick up my kids after school and I get to drive them home and hear about their day, get back onto my workhorse and be hyper effective." So we've moved into this place where a large swath of people are going, "Hang on, I want to have the opportunity to amplify my work in the way that I know best. You don't know how I work best.

Don't tell me to be in the office eight to five days a week." And we've seen this massive transition. Now, the US went through this transition pre-COVID. We didn't. And so what we see from a local standpoint is there will be a big push against this work from home policy, I guess, in the medium term, but eventually it will win out. The flexibility piece will win out. There is still a massive requirement, I feel, and through our orgs and the companies that I deal with, we've spoken about there's still a massive push towards how do we bring teams together? Because you lose a lot of communication from a nonverbal point of view by video chat. And how do we start bringing teams together in natural and organic ways, but at the same time, giving teams the freedom and the responsibility to work as effectively as they want? Whether it's your bio rhythm, some people are not out, some people are not. Whether it's your location, I love working in a coffee shop. I love the buzz around me. Some people can't stand that. So how do you get to this point of freedom? And it all boils down to trust. So how do we move our organizations to a place where we trust our staff and we are monitoring our staff on an output basis, not an input basis? So it doesn't matter that you put 40 hours in a week. Can I manage you effectively to know that the three things you needed to do this week are all done? And that is a form of leadership. That allowance of freedom is a massive form of leadership. And moving away from that authoritarian style that you spoke about earlier of you will do this into that sort of flexible, more unique leadership and situational leadership is critical.

But at the end of the day, there is still a place for an authoritarian leader. Although it may be limited, if you're on the front lines, you still want someone to say to you, this is what we're doing. It's not all debated because the bonds are coming. So there's a place for authoritarian leaders, as there are places for all types of leaders, it's just about matching those leaders with the situation and the people within that team. The story, and there's many, okay, that's what I like about it. It's easy to read. There's not these long, in-depth chapters and everything. It's to the point. But your journey yourself, how much of your journey is reflected in this book? Most of it? I would say most of it. The leaders that I speak about in the books, in the book, they are amalgamations of leaders I know personally, and stories I've been taught. So there is a layer of sort of leaders melding together to tell a narrative. But the truth is the bulk of the book is my thoughts and my journey and my realisation as I've gone through my leadership journey. And I wrote the book with a very clear mandate in my mind. As you mentioned, I don't like long-winded books. I like short, punchy, to the point, and can I walk away with frameworks and rules that I can apply quite easily? And that's really what I wanted to do.

I wanted to take my story and at the same time show everybody that my story is actually not that unique. It could be you because we have all these other myths and stories around us that we tell each other and tell ourselves that behind us human, they're all the same. And so I was trying to put across that, "This is my journey, but it's your journey too." And it could be your journey and your journey. And then how do we build together on this common journey of leadership? Wonderful stuff. My special guest, Tremaine Monaghan, we're talking about his book, The Shepherd and the Beast. I want to dive into a little bit more of Tremaine's actual story himself. And we're going to do that when we come back. This is What's Involved. So good to have you along with us. And we're back on What's Involved with Tremaine Monaghan, author of The Shepherd and the Beast. Tremaine, give me some examples of your own life where, number one, you've encountered a shepherd and some of the beasts as well. So I mean, the shepherd you will normally see quite quickly. And in my life, I think this is where I started to piece together the shepherd archetype. It's that leader that people gravitate towards. You don't know why, but you want to go and listen to them. You don't know why they're really good at telling stories or showing you the way or the vision. And those are the leaders that you start to start pulling yourself towards. And you start thinking, oh, well, okay, I will follow that person. And that is the core archetype of the shepherd that I've seen in my life. Tim, for example, in the book, is made up of a few amalgamations of a few of my leaders that I've met, but that's the common theme. You would go on a walk with some, we used to sometimes go walk around the waterfront and you would just tell stories and you would create these visuals.

And at the end of the walk, you would just bar the vision and you would want to go to war. You would want to get going. You were excited and you were just part of it. And I think that's really where the shepherd grabs you, that charisma, that ability to speak and spin stories and show vision. That's the shepherd in a nutshell. And the shepherd from that point of view is, you know, as I guess the most stereotypical of shepherds is the one from the Bible, is he takes the flock with him, he keeps them safe, they feel safe, and he takes them to the greener pasture. That's the shepherd octopod. On the flip side, we have the beast, you know, and the beast is, I guess, a little bit more multi-layered in the fact that the beast has a lot more positive than one would think because you sometimes need that driving force. The beast is hard. They want to push. They want to execute. They're always looking for results. That's the core kind of concept of the beast. They're confident and they're always looking for results. And through the beasts I've met, you know, for instance, in the book list, Dave, Dave was a beast in terms of he had a very strong singular vision. He was very good at telling you what that vision is, but you weren't on the journey with him. And so if you said something that was against his journey or his vision, you felt on the out. You were never brought in like a shepherd would bring someone in. And that piece of the beast of being able to shove somebody out of the circle, push them out of the sort of a team in the culture, that beast-like trait is quite difficult to deal with. And so I go through quite a few characters from a real life point of view of who these shepherds and who these beasts are and then play them against certain other myths in the stories I've felt. But ultimately, the book is actually one of duality. It's about how can you grow as the hero and encompass the shepherd and the beast? How can you go with the shepherd, defeat the beast or be defeated by the beast and amalgamate them into yourself so that you can flow seamlessly between being the shepherd and the beast? Because that is when we are most optimum.

That duality is why humans have managed to stay on top of the food chain for so long. Yeah, I was actually going to ask about that because even looking at the cover of the book, it's a very distinct black and white. And immediately, my mind sprang to the yin and yang. And I thought, okay, yeah, this kind of makes sense. You can't know the light unless you understand the dark, et cetera, et cetera. How big a role does ego play in this? Because you do talk quite a lot about ego in the book. Well, absolutely. I start mentioning, you know, the father of the ego and the super-ego in Sigmund Freud. You know, the ego plays a massive part of our developmental stages. And what we find as we go along in life is that certain individuals will amplify that ego. And that certainly hinders whether you're a shepherd or a beast leader. And I think the common misconception is that the beast has the ego, the shepherd doesn't, but it's not necessarily true. The shepherd may also have an ego, let's call it an ego issue, where it gets deeply inflated. And then that becomes what I've sort of termed as the anti-shepherd. But ego is actually at the root of everything we do. And the truth is without ego, the world would be a very different place. And that's a good and a bad thing. Without ego, we may not have developed as fast.

But at the same time, without ego, we may be living a much more peaceful existence. And so tempering ego is definitely part of that duality. That yin and yang that you spoke about is definitely a message that I want to bring through the book. And if you get to the chapter on the framing of how to become a leader, there are six different frameworks that you can undertake that are dichotomies. They're complete opposites. They feel like they don't make sense, but their duality is very important. And it starts about sort of tempering the ego.

Yeah, very, very interesting. I have to ask this now. It's probably not entirely relevant to the book, but are you a big fan of dead poet society? Big fan of dead poet society. And obviously Fat Lab features quite heavily in terms of the quotes. And again, you know, talking about duality, it was this book was a labor of love for me. I didn't actually think it would ever get this far, to be honest. I'm completely humbled that I actually can see this book in a store. I wrote it for myself. I wrote it because I found more time in COVID. And so there are a lot of things in the book that I thought, you know what, this would be interesting just for me. And the quotes of Fat Lab and dead poet society are a piece of that sort of whimsy that I use, I guess, my own initiative as an author. And it again is that duality. And I guess we're going to speak about this a lot. Fat Lab is a story of destroying yourself. It's a story of fighting. It's a story of battling. It's a story of identifying what is not real and what is real in the world. And dead poet society is a story of in that how to be a good young man, how to grow up with, with fortfulness and desire to be good. And those two juxtaposing each other sort of was my little playful take on how I saw the characters and how I saw the ship and the beast from a, from a quote point of view. I love, I love a good quote. That's the truth.

Now I just, I found it fascinating because as you say, those, those, those two, the movies themselves are so opposite to, to, to one another. And yet it speaks again to this, this, this, and then I often say this, it may or may not be true, but, you know, the biggest battles and the biggest beasts that I've had to overcome has actually been within myself.

Well, I mean, that, that is the journey, right? You've got to eventually get to the start of the stage where you have to break down the things within you that are hindering your growth. And that's why the five club pieces is quite important because that's the story about, you know, self-destruction, you know, and I have the quotes, one of my favorite, my favorite quotes from five club self-improvement is masturbation now self-destruction, you know, that, that's the, that's the joy. Yeah. It's like self-improvement is a joke. It's incremental. You're following the lines and lives of other people and clickbaits and the internet, 10 ways to get your ads, eight ways to be a better human, but eight ways to be a better human written from who's perspective. Right. So you actually have to go internal and you have to figure out what are the things in you that are blocking you from being a better person and then destroy that those clickbait articles about self-improvement or a complete waste of time. Yeah. It's interesting because one of my mentors who said he has passed away was a guy by the name of David patient. And when I, when he used to, we also used to go and do our walks around the farm and I used to give him all of the reasons why I was so special and why I couldn't do this. And, you know,

but you don't understand my special circumstances. And there was two things he often used to say to me and it got me very angry at the time, but now I look upon it fondly as the one was get off the cross. They need the wood. And then the other one is after I'd gone on one of these long monologues, he'd look at me and say, that is nothing more than intellectual masturbation.

So yeah, those spoke to me as well. But just going on with this, I mean, you've mentioned it's an ongoing process of development. You writing this book must have also been cathartic in a way. It was. It was one of the most difficult things that I've ever done because I'm not a natural author. You know, as mentioned earlier, I generally tend to be on the introspective sort of scale. I'm a quiet thinker. I'm very good one to one or one to two. But when the group gets a bit big, I think I'm a bit of a wallflower. And so it was quite an interesting process to sit down and say, right, I'm just going to write. And then you start to realize, oh, hang on. I actually don't know how to write. And so I went through this phase of going, how do I write anything? Because I'm not an author. And the doubt obviously kicks in and eventually you just have to erase it. And that's why my goal was just to finish. You know, my goal was to complete the journey. Everything that's happened since then has just been, you know, pure blessings on top of everything. But the journey of sitting down and writing was cathartic, but so interesting and fun at the same time, because the idea you start with when I started the book, the first thing I knew about the book was the name.

Let's put it that way. The first thing I knew was the name. I knew what the cover was going to look like. I knew what the name was. I knew what the story would sort of feel like. And then I sat down to think and everything changed. The high level concept started to form very differently to how you imagine. And that journey of going, you know, my, I'm humble in the fact that I didn't think this would be anything, but I'm still going to give 110% to it. That was a massive, it's a relearning in that we have to learn to give 110% sometimes even on the things that will never receive the last of day or the floor. That's because giving 110% is good for us. It's good for me alone. And that's how I look back at the book. Now it was, I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't expecting to be on your podcast today at all. I would never have dreamed that in a million years, but that journey of sitting down and finishing it the day I finished it, it was one of the greatest days of my life. And I'd already been turned down by eight publishers. You know, I was, I was done. And I said, you know what? I'm done. Damn over. And that was great. That was perfect. I'm going to lock this thing away. And then, you know, my publisher took a chance on me and it ended up, yeah. But that journey was the most powerful piece. No, absolutely. I can see it. And I'm smiling as you're talking to me, because I know Tracy McDonald is, and she is just the most amazing person. So I'm dead, you know, serendipity, synchronicity, call it what you will.

Absolutely. As I said, you know, like sometimes in life, you need a bit of luck with a lot of odd work. And I think that's been a message through my career as well. Work hard so that when the luck comes, you're ready. Wonderful. My special guest, Tremaine Monaghan. We'll be wrapping it up with Tremaine when we come back. Here's the author of The Shepherd and the Beast. This is what's involved. I'm so happy to have you along with us. Back in a bit. And we're back. What's involved that is and Tremaine Monaghan, author of The Shepherd and The Beast. And should we be wrapping it up? So, Tremaine, you've alluded to things that have happened since the book has been published. Talk to me about some of those things, because you are still employed, are you not? Yes, I am. I am employed. I do love a side hustle. You know, I just think the growing outside of your employment is always something to strive towards. There's always value to be extracted from people and your value to be given back to the world. So, I am currently employed. I do coach on the side. I do do consulting on the side. And I'm writing book number two on the side. So, try to keep myself busy and out of trouble. It doesn't sound just like busy. It sounds crazy. But now, in terms of the organization that you work with, obviously, they are that kind of an organization that allows you this freedom of expression. Absolutely. I think we alluded to the age of work. And where I'm currently at, it has been great from a flexibility point of view. We, as an organization, embraced work from home. Many years before COVID, as an organization, we embraced flexible time and a more unique and specific human resource kind of approach, which means that individual needs can be monitored and met. And it's about...

I'll give you an example. I had a guy on my team. We have a learning KPI. So, you have to do a piece of learning a year that grows you. And this guy said, "I want to learn to code an autonomous car on a Udemy course." Now, he was never going to code an autonomous car for me. It was never going to add value to his job currently. But I said, "Yes, he can do it." And the reason is, I believe, and I guess, through my senior leadership at this company, have driven that into the organization, that all learning is important. The mere fact that you are stretching your brain and building new neural networks and learning something is sometimes more important than the thing you learn because we live in the age of information in Google. We live in the age of fiber. You can get an expert in 10 minutes. And so, I think having those sorts of approaches, and that extends to doing things outside of work in your spare time, the ability to grow and see new things, meet new people, talk to new companies, really amplifies your skillset and your ability to perform at work. And as long as you're managing that in a hyper-effective way, in an output methodology with a trusted relationship and leadership model, it can work for any organization. Yeah, I agree. And we need more of those kinds of organizations. Hence, to me, this book is a must not just for your CFOs or your CEOs, but if you're involved in business, any way, shape, or form, get the book, read it.

If you are a coach, read it. There's some great bits in here. I thoroughly enjoyed going through it. And it wasn't hard to read at all. It is very, very well written. Now, to me, normally at this stage, as we wrap up, I would say to my guests, what's next for them? But you've kind of preempted me there and you said you're busy with book number two. Can you share a little bit? What's it about? Look, I think through the writing of book number one, I started to see the theme of humanity being very similar. So different, but so similar. And so I think book number two will follow a similar theme in terms of the imagery and vision that I put on the paper, but kind of saying, right, if you are a leader and you embrace duality, can you sit in these 12 architects? So there'll be specific archetypes of leaders. And how do you amplify yourself in one of those 12? Or how do you deal with one of your leaders who are in one of those 12 in order to amplify your performance? And I think that's where we'll end up. As I said about the first book, through the process, it changes many times. So we'll see. But that's where we're leaning towards now. It's kind of saying we are very similar as a species at the 99% level.

Yeah. Well, I'm putting my name down right now to chat to you as soon as that second book is launched. 100%. You'll be number one. I think it's going to be fantastic. And I'm looking forward to it. A piece of advice, Tremaine, for somebody who's listening to this, and maybe they are feeling stuck and that there is more to this world than just nine to five. What advice would you give somebody? It's the human condition of inertia. We're constantly stopping. And it's quite difficult to push an inert object. And humans, we find so many excuses. I can't do this because of. I don't have time in the day because I have a family. The truth is those are all excuses we tell ourselves and each other. Sometimes you just need to do it. You just need to stop. And the truth is, if you don't feel strong or confident enough to start, there are things to do. And you don't have to buy the book for this. But the rules in the book are really simple. Read more. Think more. Write more. Speak more. Do those things and grow your confidence through that cycle and in that order. And you will become a better person. And it will be easier for you to start anything with the confidence you pull through that. And I think that's the whole story. Just do it. Just start. And if you fail, start again.

Wonderful stuff. Yeah. Definitely some worthwhile advice there. Tremaine, is the book available in all good bookstores? That's it. All good bookstores. It is on Amazon Kindle and Take A Lot as well. So wherever you choose to buy your books, that's where it is. Wonderful stuff. And if people want to find out more about you or maybe somebody's listening and they go, "Right. I need to speak to Tremaine and get some guidance." Yeah. How would they get hold of you? You got a website? Tremaine.co. today. And I'm quite active on LinkedIn as well. So Tremaine Monahan on LinkedIn. Reach out to me. I respond to 100% of my messages. So Tremaine.co. today or on LinkedIn. Wonderful stuff. Tremaine, just by the way, is spelled T-R-A-M-A-Y-N-E. Tremaine.co.za. Tremaine, thank you so much for taking the time out having a chat to us. I hope this book gets into many, many, many, many people's hands and that they can all take the learnings from this book. Thank you so much. Thanks, David. You're very, very kind. And thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Absolute pleasure. So there we go. Wraps it up for this edition of What's Involved. That was my special guest, Tremaine Monahan, author of The Shepherd and the Beast, The Hero's Journey for Leaders. It is a great book. Go out, get your hands on it, give it a read. Until next time, to each and every one of you, look after yourselves, take care, and thank you for listening.