Brad Shorkend And Andy Golding — Authors, Speakers Trainers And Most Importantly Still Human

time for what's involved. Man, we got a jam-packed show tonight and two special guests. Yep, we got a two for tonight. We are chatting to Brad Shulkin and Andy Golding. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Hello. Good evening. We're just, we're having, we're playing share a mic. It's called intimate radio this evening, so that's that's a whole lot of fun. The reason you guys are here is we're gonna be talking amongst other things about your book called we are still human and work doesn't have to suck. And work shouldn't suck. Work shouldn't suck. We're gonna get into all of that. I was, we were chatting off here, I said Andy's the first time I've met you today, an absolute pleasure. We're gonna discuss whether you need a medal for working with Brad for for this amount of time. And Brad, sure, five years, eh? Five years. You, whether Andy deserves a medal. I'm wondering whether I might deserve the medal. I think it's more a question of a trophy than a medal. Oh, you want a trophy, you know, yes. You get one. Actually, you'll both get one. Participation trophies. Thank you. Yeah, five years. Five years has gone by. Five years. We were actually talking, when I last spoke to you, you were, you were sort of very into this transformational thing. I think it was the beginning stages of what has turned into your business now. And you're about to go and climb a mountain. And I still remember saying, you are nuts. Why? And you gave me the same answer as all other people have given me that's climbed mountains and said because it's there.

Yeah, I was on my way to Everest. And although the, the rationale behind that has changed. Because, yeah, it is because it's there. But I think I've climbed quite a few mountains since then. And that's figuratively and literally. But the thing is that what one can never, ever explain is when you stand on top of that mountain, and it's kind of like the same as the second we, we saw our book on the shelf. There's, there's that euphoria that is impossible to describe. And that actually is the reason. It's not because it's there. It's because it's such an unbelievable achievement to get it right. When you consider the amount of work that goes into it and say, oh, it's, it's, there's been a shift in my, in my lens as to, as to the why. Yeah. Even, even though some people, you know, sort of go Kilimanjaro, for example, it's just a brisk stroll. I still would not, and I have the greatest respect for people who do. Anyone who says Kilimanjaro is just a brisk stroll, I want to see their summit photo. Because I'm calling bull. It is not a brisk stroll. It's, but it is allegedly an easier. It's easier than Everest. It says in inverted colors. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, dead is dead, one way or the other. Anyways, so let's move across to Andy though, because I know a little bit of Brad's story. And hopefully you're not as reticent as Brad is to share the story. Tell me a bit about Andy. Who is Andy and how on earth did you guys get together and write what I believe is a brilliant book. It's a, it's, it's an instruction manual, man. Very much so. It's a how-to guide. But to answer your question, the, the shortest possible sentence that I can say around how I get to be sitting here doing what I do is because my first job sucked. It, it really did. My boss was terrible. She was dictatorial. It was a job that I had taken right when I finished my trick to help pay for my metric back. And it planted a seed in me that I genuinely just couldn't reconcile that for the last 12 years, I'd worked really hard to get good grades, to get into university, to get a good degree, to get up every morning and hate the job that I was spending all my time at. I just thought that this can't be what life is about.

There has to be a better way. There has to be a way to create that I can show up every single day to work whatever way, shape or form that might take. But I can show up every single day and it's somewhere where I'm being switched on. I'm excited to be, I can add value. And that was the, the start of this journey which, which then led to studying brand building and management with a focus on internal branding and company culture. That then led me to a company called Missing Link and you spoke to Don. I was going to say little, little company heard of them, yes. But Missing Link was really where my, my journey kind of, it was definitely the springboard for me and where I proved my theory that work doesn't have to suck. You know, you can have a great time at work every day working damn hard, doing amazing things, creating magic for your clients, but at the same time creating magic for yourself. And left Missing Link to go live in Spain for a while, came home and knew that I wanted to work in the company culture employee experience design space. Was quite adamant that that was where I wanted to be. Started a business in the space focused on employee experience design. And then it was actually Don Packett from Missing Link who introduced this guy to me, Brad Shawkin. And yeah, the rest as we say is history. It's history in the making there because, you know, when you, the way you guys talk about it, it's like, yeah, it's a, it's a great idea everybody, but it's a massive idea. I mean, this is, this is a massive idea with massive implications. Brad, did you ever see yourself working with, with another person with an Andy, for example?

Now that is a really good question. My background, I was an architect and I ran my practice for about 16 years. 16 years practice. And yeah, well it's, and it was an incredible, incredible journey. I had an exceptional business partner. Very privileged to have built a business with the partner that I had at the time. And the only thing though was while we were building that business, and we were very entrepreneurial at the time, we got involved in lots of other businesses. But that was our core focus and that was the cash cow. We were building a business that was a very stressful place. Architecture and construction is not a, it's not a fun place to play, but we were, we were doing it well. But I also felt like I was killing myself slightly, but surely a stressful environment. Building an environment where people could thrive, but with no intentionality. You know, 20 plus 25 years ago, business schools didn't exist the way they do now. Online education didn't exist the way it did now. We were accidental leaders. We were just doing it the best we knew how. And kind of creating a good experience with people who worked for us most of the time. When I got out of that game and I decided I'd had enough of architecture because I was a slave to building sites, I just felt like my success in life was contingent on a whole lot of other people who were just going through the motions to get paid. And, and that wasn't my internal staff. They're all teams. That was the guys on building sites. I just thought, you know, this is not what I want anymore. And I needed an escape. And one thing led to another and I found myself re-educating myself and traveling a lot and working into this world of education, corporate education, of human education, of helping leaders to think differently. And that's evolved in many different ways. Interesting point though is I also made a promise to myself when I got out of the architecture that I was not going to have more businesses where I had to babysit people because as much as I enjoyed leading, I was also like a prisoner in that space. And I didn't want partners. I didn't want employees. I wanted none of that. And I resisted. I mean, I've been in this industry now. There was an overlap between the two for almost as long as I was in architecture.

This is my 15th year doing this now. Mm-hmm. And for many of those years, I just traveled solo. I did my own thing. I arrived in the room. I did a talk, did a facilitation, jumped on a plane. No one to answer to could go and climb mountains as much as I wanted. I remember having this kind of discussion, which is why I brought the question out. And then, and then Andy came along. But the reason for the choice was there were a lot of people who came along over the years. They wanted to dabble and do stuff together and explore. And in our game, we all do. We're all looking for collaborations and, but nothing quite landed. They wanted to really good relationships that are kind of part-time relationships that have materialized along the way with some incredible minds and human beings. But I got to a point when Andy came along and I thought, I'm actually a little bit bored. I feel like I need to have someone to think with, to celebrate the hires with, to also have those moments where you really want to have like a bitching session and say that sucked, and to inspire, motivate my own thinking as well. And we just found a flow and it was an accident. We, when Don introduced us, Andy and I took a, about a year, we call it a year of Saturdays, and we met, I mean this is how sad our lives were at the time, we met every Saturday morning in a coffee shop called Guru, which no longer exists. And we, we just researched, we googled what, well we googled, we read, we explored, we connected with organizations around the world that were great places to work at. And we tried to understand what were they all doing that created that these were great places for people to be. And yeah, one thing led to another, a model evolved, which was a, we were demystifying something that was a bit fuzzy. And we then had a moment at a conference, is it what, three years ago, learning innovation. And I was asked to speak at the conference and I said, "Fall." And I said to Andy, "You know what, let's test this research on stage." And I said to Andy, "Come, let's, let's speak together on the stage. Let's share this model with the world." Which for me is a very uncomfortable thing to do because I'm very much a freestyler on stage. Now I've got a person next to me who's waiting for a cue and, and then the tech failed and there was no slides and it was just, it was really entertaining on the day. But we shared the model and during the presentation there was a moment where I said, "And we are still human." And the whole room of a couple of hundred people went like, and we came off the stage and I said to Andy, "This is a real thing. Let's register a business. Let's have a go and let's call it still human." So, so the business is still human. The business is called still human. Still human positions itself as a relevance bureau. But let me, to simplify that, still human specializes really and focuses on helping organizations to switch on and grow human beings in a world that has gone digital crazy. To activate and get the best out of human beings. To reconnect with human beings in order that businesses can thrive in this digital chaos that we're living in. It's a fantastic, fantastic journey. And I mean, when I look, I know a little bit more about you and your background, but having chatted to you, Andy, I can see, and it does, it does seem to be this flow, this connection between the two of you. You kind of are on the same wavelength, which, you know, to meet the bread of five years ago, I think he was not going to be on the same wavelength as anybody, you know. And I understand, though, what you say about hating your job and your job sucks. I sold out and went back to the corporate industry with corporate world for about two, two years, and running a small group of companies. And my immediate superior was just an absolute nightmare. You know, rule of tyranny, ruled by fear. You know, people used to kind of like, want to shove themselves up against a wall, go please don't see me, please don't, in case he was in a bad mood that day. And I went in full of these ideas, I'm gonna do this and do that. And in those two years, it was soul-destroying. It was absolutely crushing. And I hated and I thought, but you know, and so many people, I mean, you know, my mom is from the old school and she's very much the shut up, you've got a job, be grateful. And I went, I don't like it, that doesn't matter, you're earning money, you're being a responsible citizen. I'm like, yeah, but I don't care about the money so much. And when I said that, it suddenly struck me. I was very, very money oriented in the beginning. And then it became like, now you can pay me all the money in the world. I hate this place. I hate what I'm doing. I hate what it's doing to me. And I hate what it does to people. And what you guys are talking about, it's fantastic. And I mean, there's a lot of people, I'm saying this, this is not coming out of your mouth, but there's a lot of people paying lip service to this whole, you know, let's self actualize it, get our employees involved and engaged.

And it seems like it's the sexy thing to do at the moment. And I don't know if people get the importance of the work that you're doing. And it's I think that the exciting thing around that is, sure, we get it, but we spend all day every day looking at the very real impact that it has on business and on people. But especially the employee experience conversation, it's quite a new term, it's being thrown around like a buzzword, it's kind of being slapped onto traditional HR. And now we're calling it employee experience. And it's, it's a completely different thing. But the what's, what's really exciting for us is that even though this is quite a new field, globally, there's so much being done around it and Deloitte the global human capital trends that come out every year, the the numbers are really starting to kind of shake people awake. You know, I mean, they've the global human capital trends for 2019. The companies with the highest employee experience companies where people the best people want to come and do come and choose to stay, where people are having a great experience at work, double the innovation, double the customer satisfaction and 25% higher profits. Now, there's not many companies out there that wouldn't do a whole lot for 25% higher profits. And if you can just get involved in and get really intentional about switching people on, growing them, creating environments where human beings thrive, you can get there. We'll talk more about this when we come back. This is absolutely fascinating. And I know Brad wants to jump in chat when we come back.

It is what's involved this Monday night mix 93.8. Such a pleasure to have you with us. It is what's involved on this Monday night. My special guests in studio is Brad Shulkin and Andy Golding. We're talking about the book. We are still human and work shouldn't suck. And we're just talking about the business, what they do, how they do. I'd love to hear from you though. What are your thoughts if you'd like to ask either Andy or Brad any questions? You can SMS us 41348. Those SMS's are charged at 150. Otherwise, what's app us 0848220938. So just before the break, Brad was getting ready to add something to the conversation. So Brad, before we get into what you were gonna say, you guys have been really kind and you've offered us a couple of prizes. So these two copies of the book that we're gonna be giving away and then we're gonna be giving away a main prize. Do you want to talk to me a little bit about that? Cool. So what Andy and I would like to do is we would like to offer, we'll buy the lunch, a two-hour lunch session with a business owner or a CEO of a business that has at least 10 employees. Okay. So you've got to have 10 or more. You've got to be the owner or the CEO. Correct. And then you're gonna be giving away a two-hour lunch session and you're buying. How awesome are these guys? And what we'll talk about at lunch is we'd like to know what's going on for you and your organization and you can throw questions at us and we'll share with you what we're learning, what we're researching, what we're discovering inside organizations around the world and how that might be relevant for you. Somebody just sent a message you know it says it all sounds brilliant but what do they actually do? So there we go. What do you actually do? Okay. So what we actually do is the first thing is we actually help organizations understand where there are gaps in the experience people are having. What we find, we've got a process we run called an MRI and the MRI assist organizations to understand the touch points of experience and it's a process that we take the organization through in various levels and layers and to date what we found is that every leadership team to which we've presented the results has been shocked by what they think the experience is that people are having compared to what the real experience is that people are having and when we say experience obviously if people are familiar with the book they'll understand that they are the 12 essentials of a company behaving awesomely and those are the touch points of experience and they cover things like meaningful communication, innovation with intent, knowledge flow, recognition and so we go and these are the critical things that as we said the best organizations around the world to work for obsess about getting right that create these exceptional experiences.

Once we've assisted an organization to understand what the experience is that the people in that organization are having we then assist them to devise the strategies in terms of the various areas of the organization in terms of how to shift that experience and those experience touch points and it's not all bad news we work on what are the awesome things that are going on that we need to be doing more of and amplifying and then what are the potential weak spots the mission criticals as we call them where some work and attention needs to be paid. The general sort of feeling though is that corporate South Africa is stagnant stuck in the past it's run by a bunch of old people that that really don't care yada yada yada all they care about is the bottom line. Is that necessarily the truth? Andy? Yes and no and it depends. That is such a radio answer. If I'm completely honest we've we've seen it all there is a lot of very stuck thinking in some organizations but the exciting thing that we're seeing is that in a whole lot of organizations this realization and awakening that the world of work has changed we no longer need people to move this widget from point A to point B that's not what we're really employing people for especially in the knowledge workspace you know that we require people to bring their best thinking we need people to bring their ideas their perspective their problem solving ability and so what's starting to happen is companies are realizing that the old ways of doing things just don't work anymore they work to a point and we can get some stuff from people but if you're wanting to be a magic baking high-impact organization it's got to become about switching people on and growing them because I mean what you're saying is is one of those things where I would go but listen surely for any business it is common sense but unfortunately the thing about common sense is it's not very common exactly because you know you would think invest in your staff invest in your employees happy employees equal happy customers it doesn't always happen that way what what what are we doing about bread so you would think it's common sense and as you say common sense is not so common I think what we find the most frequent problem is is people's interpretation of what investing your employees really means and it's not about pink couches and free popcorn on Fridays it's about what understanding what people's fundamental base requirements on how they want to be treated what it is that switches people on emotionally and gets them to want to contribute and participate what it is it makes people feel safe to innovate and take chances what it is it makes people actually care enough to care about your customers and so it goes back to basic human and the elements of people wanting to show up and contributing give you their best the problem is that leaders largely don't think about these things strategically they don't have business leaders don't have what we call people strategy they're not actually thinking about the fundamentals of when I'm driving to work in the morning these X amount of people that I'm going to be engaging with what is it that I'm going to be doing today that's going to get them to show up and not because I'm beating them with a stick but because they want to come on board because they're buying in and they get this and so we talk a lot about people strategy the links between people strategy and culture and intentional leadership because ultimately all of this is a product of leadership you know we have a lot of clients who come along and they want to create change and the story is fix them and then point a layer or two down fix them they the problem and what we found is in many of the organizations we've worked in especially when we've been mandated by a CEO who's been switched on enough to say tell me what's going on very often we found that the problem has been identified as any at an executive level at an exco level and there's usually a tyrannical leader who's made a lot of money has got a lot of sway and power and people are fearing this person but nobody wants to speak up about it the problem is that other people watch these behaviors and the guy that's how I become successful and now you've got a real problem so we we also focus a lot on what are the behaviors that you celebrate and what are the behaviors that you don't tolerate because while you're building you can be breaking equally fast and it's really a dance and it's a it's a dance of leadership none of this happens if it's not driven hard by conscious and intentional leadership which is I mean yeah I've just got another message in hello guys great work we have a good company that promotes you on your achievements yet there is a silent expectation driving late nights that no one should talk about yet it is expected how do you approach a company that is doing great and tell them we quite tired and we'd like to see our families more often this is the kind of thing I work to somebody at one stage and they and this was when I was joined the ranks of the salaried again and you know I said you know you could actually you could do so much good but just telling the people that they're doing a good job and the reply was why I pay them they don't thank me for their salary so naturally me being me I used to work walk in on the 25th of every single month and sit down and say thank you so much for paying me yeah I didn't get on my way but but this is it I mean here we go I got into trouble same place I got into trouble because I wasted in inverted commas time in the morning because I took time out to go and talk to all of the staff when I got to work well normally I'd be there I'd be there first because that's one of the things I believed in and I would go and say hello from from the cleaners the tea ladies all the way up how are you you know say to the tea lady how is how's your child I believe she had flu and she wasn't and you know what just that just that showing up and letting somebody know that you care has such a huge impact and yet corporate South Africa largely screws it up well I mean that's the basics of good human and exactly to what Brad was talking about just now most of the work that we do is just about getting back to doing good human in business and a lot of the time it's it's a lot easier because of the way we've always done things to talk about good human in and say we you know it's it's kind of important to us but what we do the real versus the the perceived is entirely different so we say we really care about our employees well-being and we want you guys to have a good balance you know we need you to have your off time and see your family is at night but the people that we're rewarding the people that we're promoting people were recognizing are the guys who are pulling the all-nighters and the question then becomes as an organization do you just say that you value this balanced thing and you value people having time in their lives because if that's what you say that's what you need to reward and that's the celebrate tolerate that Brad was talking about because it's it's very easy to say a whole lot of stuff around people but the way the rubber hits the road is do you act on it and do you act on it in a completely non-negotiable way you know so to to exactly what you were saying around we were that what what the listener wrote in about rewarding this under this undercurrent of people working late hours my question is have the management first of all all the management acknowledging it are they just kind of sweeping it under the rug and has there been an open conversation around listen guys this is not what we expect hmm or when it does happen it should be the exception or if you're doing it too often there's something wrong we got to figure out how do we how do we because there's something wrong in the process if we can only get our work done after hours something's wrong in the ways of working in the organization which is true because it becomes that kind of thing it's almost like a badge of honor I pulled an all-night all-nighter last night and I was I would always ask why why why did you why did you have to do that one of my more spectacular explosions ended up when I told somebody that they have a bunch of human doings that work there as opposed to human beings so that also I score popularity points wherever I go Brad before we get to there's a question yes Andy obviously you house it Andy Danny here question what about the member that takes advantage of this ideology say your boss chooses to start implementing the guy basically shows the boss that the guys have the capacity to take advantage Danny having read that question I do not understand any of it could you could you please maybe I just read it wrong with please could you make a little simpler for me so that I can understand sorry Andy I didn't read the whole thing a great cop great topic tonight staying at the office until all hours doesn't equate to productivity yes there we go Brad you're the deep thinker as well here about this because you've you've done a lot of thought about this whole thing are you a Tim Ferriss fan very much a Tim Ferriss fan thank you he's a very smart guy continue so to add on and add a little bit more in a slightly different direction there's another element here that needs to be considered and in May I think this year the World Health Organization declared burnout classified it as a medical condition burnout previously was just a word it is now medical now that comes with all sorts of complexities in terms of medical aids because you're not gonna get the lazy guy who's declaring burnout even though it's just some basic workplace stress so that's got to be managed in one space but most people think that burnout is the product of the late nights and it's not that it's an element that's working hard you'll be tired burnout is actually a psychological construct based on a lack of psychological safety you don't feel safe a lack of a sense of belonging not being able to perform at your highest levels of efficacy so not your true potential these are things that create that people burnout people get sick now as a business leader if you are aware or not aware but need to become aware that the environment you're creating and sustaining is doing this to people you are effectively killing people because the incidence of workplace related illness is higher these days these are the statistics then sugar related and smoking related illnesses this is the epidemic we're facing higher than sugar related and smoking related illnesses workplace stress related disease chronic illness caused by workplace related stress that's where the the current information is sitting so and I don't want to go too deep into the stats that's there's researchable but now if you somebody who creates experience for people who come to work and it's doing that to them you know really think twice about what it is you're waking up in the morning to do and that's whether you're leading people or just engaging with colleagues around you you know we create they are no neutral moments every moment creates a negative or positive experience for another human being that impacts physiologically and emotionally and that ultimately compounds into their their physical mental condition so these are things we need to become really really aware of and and and sorry one last comment and I'm not even talking about business impact here because at the end of the day the work that we do is designed to create high functioning businesses high functioning people optimally accessed high functioning businesses to remain relevant in today's workplace because there's an innovation link as well but I'm just talking about pure human decency around the awareness of wellness well one of one of my big wake-up calls was my dad was literally on on his deathbed and he turned around to me he quoted I think it was I can't remember exactly who it was but he said please promise me one thing son that you will not do what I have done and lead a life of quiet desperation and he was in the corporate world his whole life and that's what ultimately led to his death I mean he had heart failure but it was that it was that kind of stress and where people get treated like like numbers or worse like animals and I've seen a whole bunch of that we're gonna come back and talk some more and then we'll ask about where we will ask a question I think or two in there we'll give you some some prizes because that book we are still human and work shouldn't suck brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant book what's involved we're almost at a time you before he can't help falling in love we need some more love in the workplace the messages have come flooding and I hope I hope CEOs bosses managers are listening tonight I've got another one two three four five six seven in since we spoke people saying I wish my boss was listening I wish my manager was listening somebody else says I wish I wish he was listening to this program he would learn a lot the question is and and one of my my great mentors I'll give you the clean version I use the other version when I'm not on radio and and he always used to say to me you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to do bad things to the fish and and you know that's the thing there's this the information is there the technology is there but it's got to start somewhere so so let's get on to we're gonna give away so we make it easy let's make it easy okay there's there's three prizes we're giving away two books okay so if you can tell me what is the title of the book and get it right it's by Brad Shulkin and Andy Golding we are still human and work shouldn't sack so if you can let me know about that and also if you are a CEO because I don't think you can really nominate your your CEO or your immediate boss you know what I mean because because they might take offense and go problem what problem there is no problem here shut up or you're fired but if you are listening if you are a progressive person ten people or more in your company you are the CEO or the owner do me a favor what's at me right now 0 8 4 8 double 2 0 9 3 8 also if you would like to win a copy of the book you can SMS 4 1 3 4 8 SMS to charge at 1 or in 50 otherwise WhatsApp 0 8 4 8 double 2 0 9 3 8 so you mentioned here that that that this book is a handbook it's a manual who is this book for I know CEOs yes owners yes what about you know the people that are at other levels maybe you wish maybe got a small business like me yeah so the book is actually for every single human being who wakes up in the morning and goes to engage with other human beings in the workplace we are all constantly creating experiences with the people around us every single moment every reaction every knee-jerk every considerable unconsidered response creates something for someone else and when you understand that when you're intentional around that you have the power to change their experience you also have the power to change the influence you have over them constructively positively and so while we were writing it we were very conscious not for it to feel like it was exclusively for leaders leaders with title that is that it is a book that's written for every single person who engages other human beings there is a subsection in each of the chapters for lack of a better word which is the leaders lens if you're a busy business leader you can dive in you can look for the highlighted blocks they'll give you the essence of what that section was about if you want to go deeper you obviously can access more but we're aware that people read differently so we wrote it to be read in four different ways it's visual so there's lots of pictures that that will tell the story it can be read cover-to-cover it can be read via the leaders lens and you can literally open it up anywhere and read it from whatever page you open it up on and that's just to tick all the different brain types the reason and and I'm smiling you can't see it but I'm smiling now because when bad and Andy were telling me about the book I'm like dig the pictures dig the cartoons in because I speak picture which is good and then they went and you can open it up and read it anywhere I'm like no you can't cover to cover his heart it is a fantastic book though because of the way that it has been written I initially thought oh this is gonna be highbrow and it's gonna be all this sort of fancy academic theory it's not and it boils down to being human our human beingness and I just found when I work with other people simple things like a genuine hello a genuine how are you because how many times you know somebody says to you hi hello how are you and they carry on because in their head you've already answered fine now in my book fine stands for fouled up insecure neurotic and emotional so when I say fine you're getting the whole bunch there but you know to actually care about your fellow man why have we lost this I don't know but but where do we start we spend so much time at work I think you guys are into a brilliant thing here thank you I mean I'm biased but I agree with you agreement I think and I think the the reason that the book has had the response that it has and why it's resonating so much with people is because we've done something really simple with it in that we've taken something traditionally incredibly hybrid if I can use your language and complex and vague and we've made it simple English you know we we spent a long time researching gathering understanding building this model and then the second massive part of that project was to English a fire it's put it into language that everybody gets because it's it's to exactly what Brad was saying every human being who gets up in the morning and goes to engage with other people should be able to ensure should get this and that was the intention behind the model that we built how we worded them the model and how we wrote every single word of the book that everybody should just get it off the bat and I and I think they will just again let's let's talk about the the the prize that we give it away to a business owner and a CEO so it's a two-hour lunch meeting all right lunch will be on you yes yes Brad and Andy and then you will discuss with them what's happening in their business now if I'm listening and I and I know my CEO is open-minded or I am a CEO or business owner I would be on the phone right now gang dude really because this is worth a lot of money I mean let's be honest you guys you guys this is what you do for a living and it is very high-end stuff so this is worth a substantial amount of money and and bad and Andy have been kind enough to do that you got roughly four or five minutes left of the show so get those in congratulations you can stop messaging now I do have a couple of winners winning the book one winner is Sean H the station will be in touch with you congratulations our second one of the book is the randomizer's busy working and who is this from we've got a Karen Karen well done you have also won a copy of that book it'll be delivered to you compliments of nightwing couriers somebody from the station will be in touch so before we end before we end two things I'm going to ask you Andy advice for business owners he is what one piece of advice would you give them and then Brad I'm going to ask you about where to next for you guys as a company I think the one piece of advice is you can't read the label from inside the jar and as a business owner the the movie that you're watching play out of your business is very different to the movie that your employees are watching play out and you may be having a great experience at work because you because of where you sit in the organization and you know the rules may apply differently or you maybe you you're the person who makes the rules but just because you're having a good experience makes it a very very very dangerous assumption that your employees themselves are having a good experience so don't make the assumption don't get stuck in the assumption that employee experience is good make an effort to genuinely find out and make the necessary changes thank you can you imagine can you just imagine what it would be like if your staff and you as a staff member are happy going to work can you imagine not having to get up with that dread that hollow feeling in the pit of your stomach it can be done Brad to wrap up where to from here so the one way to is we're busy crafting the next book and it will be a build on this quite a quite a funky process we're putting together there's something very impactful very meaningful that's been a learning from this book and also another way to is we're taking everything we've designed there's been a lot of new research and new technology new models since the book and we are currently packaging that for a global impact we're looking at having partners around the world who are delivering this work into organizations around the world I think not only around the world but I think we've got huge potential up into Africa very much so and I must warn you if you're a South African listening to this the rest of Africa are catching on very very quickly pay attention where do people get hold of the book number one the book is available at all good book stores exclusive books also online at Amazon at take a lot.com at loot even I saw it at macro online so yeah so it's it's broadly available and we are available at Brad or Andy at stillhuman.co.za Brad, Andy, A-N-D-Y by the way A-N-D-Y at stillhuman.co.za can I get the book from you let's just say they can get the book from us as well. I want to get the book Derek from you absolutely can we there's people like me that love to collect autograph books. Absolutely. This is going minds going to a place of pride Brad Andy thank you so much for taking the time out I know you Brad you've been ill you just kind of you know got released yesterday did you say yeah he's get out of hospital we won't go into what it was but Brad was not well and I'm not I don't think I've ever heard Brad saying he's hasn't been well really because Brad likes to be fit how do you cope I'm just ending with that are you also a fitness freak like he is yes indeed Brad and I climb mountains in different ways Brad walks up them I tend to scale them up the side are you are you of the rock climbing persuasion I am of the rock climbing persuasion also the ultimate frisbee persuasion Oh ultimate frisbee yeah I have to bring you back on totally unrelated subjects guys thank you thank you thank you thank you it's been absolutely brilliant thanks to the winners as well and thank you for listening.