Gareth Patterson — Author, Conservationist, Activist, Beyond The Secret Elephants

It is what's involved and very very special guest. I'm turning to you at the moment Gareth Patterson now you may ask who who who's Gareth Patterson? Well, I'm gonna let Gareth tell you who he is How are you Gareth? I'm fine. Thank you, David. How are you? exceptionally well, so tell us a little bit about about Gareth Patterson because I Don't know and I've been trying to figure this out before I don't know if we've actually met somewhere before or if I just feel like I know you because of your books, but You said you've been around in the environmental world for for a couple of years. I Have and that's putting it mildly and I was working out recently. I wrote my first book So it's actually I think this year. It's 31 years ago. It was a book called cry for the Lions and it's people probably Best know me or or in the past knew me best for my work with the African lion and Back all those years ago. I was a young game ranger researcher in the 2d bushlands in Botswana and That's when I first studied blinds for the first time did an observer's study on on the lion population There and it was a bit of a foreboding of what was going to come in the future for the African lion Back then it was that estimated in the 80s. It was estimated that there was perhaps about 250,000 lions in Africa and today We were probably down to about 15 to 20,000 and that first book of mine Christ the Lions was trying to shake people up three decades ago to the real plight of the lion And and to to to try and stimulate greater protection of the line back in those days You know, I think you know the conservationists of the day So, you know, who the hell is this young guy lions are fine. They breathe prolific Lee dah dah dah dah dah dah and You know, I'm very disappointed to say that there wasn't long-term foresight for the species But as I said, you know, there's probably only 15 to 20,000 rhymes around today and cry for the Lions was all about that to demonstrate How vulnerable lions are to to humankind That population when I first started studying them was was about 60 individuals and within two and a half years that number had halved Due to trophy hunting lions being lured out of the Botswana side of the reserve into South Africa snaring poaching poisoning So yeah, so that was my first sort of plea for the African line three decades ago Okay, and I mean you you've written because it was cry for the Lions and you've also done where the Lions walked the Lions legacy there's been a couple what about five or six books around the Lions and I think that's where I first came to you kind of like I said, I feel like I know you because Reading of those books and the way that you described it and and I've got a huge love for nature In fact in it in another lifetime. I used to do a lot of guarding in the in the cricket box Something very close to my heart Then then you came out in when was it? It was around 2008 2009 And you changed focus a little bit. At least it seemed to me you did and you and you wrote a book called the secret elephants What was that about and why the change? Yes, that was it. Yeah the secret elephant that was 2009 and Before then what I what I did, you know I wrote a couple of books about how I worked with the late George Adamson of born free fame and After George was murdered in Kenya by I free poachers I rescued and and relocated his last Three lion orphans. They were really I mean if Elsa back in the you know The fifties and sixties was the was the first of the three of the born free lions these last three Lions lion cubs of Georgia's were the were the last of the free and that was actually the title of the first book I wrote about the saga of how I successfully rehabilitated them back into the wilds in the 2d bushlands and where I've studied lions previously and then a book followed that called with my soul monks lines and and then I went on to in the late 90s to expose for the very first time with the international fund for animal welfare and the UK investigative TV program the cook report the sordid practice in South Africa of canned lion hunting in those days They were only inverted commas only about 300 400 lines caught up in this industry in South Africa Whereupon lions have been bred For the trophy hunters guns, you know being shot in enclosed areas and everything unfortunately today, you know, this is still continuing and And you know, there could be as many as eight to twelve thousand lions caught up in this industry and it's and it's very relevant to today with the whole coronavirus situation of Rhinosis animal disease is being passed on to passed on from animals to human beings because Unfortunately our government in this country allows the export of lion bones the can't line industry has has gone has gone down because of

International reaction to it airlines won't export trophies, etc, etc, etc But now the the lion farmers have shifted a bit and now making money with the export of lion bones Which is used to replace the the the tiger bone wine Industry if you want to call it in the Far East And this is a very very dangerous situation all round not only because of the welfare of the lion But the potential passing on diseases to human beings, but anyway on to a more onto a more cheerful life. Yes back in 2001 I moved down to nice that I never really shifted species Elephants lions and elephants have always been the key animals that I've been focusing on all these years Wherever I've worked with lions. There's always been elephants and I've tried my utmost in my little way to to protect them too, so I'm coming down and coming down to nice and studying these elusive and and very endangered nice and elephant it wasn't so much a shift of a species but just concentrating on them for the time being oh I see, but I mean sorry you just the whole concept and this is something that I hadn't heard of of These guys now wanting to export lion bones. I mean it is absolutely Insane and and and just as an aside I mean, you know for for somebody who is very conservation minded like I am I'm kind of sitting it one on the one hand looking at this coronavirus and going well We didn't want to listen so now we're going to suffer and and maybe maybe in some weird way It's good for our environment. I'm not sure about that. What are your thoughts?

you know, I just you know, I just I just worry that as as human beings we have a very short memory and we can revert back to Very bad habits very quickly I mean on the I am traditionally a person who prefers to see a glass half full then half empty and the half full side of me is saying that I Really do hope that we can learn some some lessons here and really see us Our kind in perspective to the rest of nature We mustn't see ourselves as being as on the top of the pinnacle of the primates of you know of the pyramid I'm not the primary pyramid of of life and you know and and and being the the know and see you of everything and actually see ourselves in in our place and that we're really just Another species of life and and I know it's a very old adage but the adage of nature can survive really Happily and abundantly without us, but we must realize that we can't we can't survive without nature I mean it it provides the air we breathe the water we drink and Everything to us and and if anything I hope I really hope that this will be a humbling Experience for humankind and will give us time to actually reflect with us You know our true place in nature we are just one another species, you know Absolutely what when we come back how we're gonna continue chatting with Gareth. It's Fascinating and and I mean, you know when we get to talking about elephants It is some of the most there are some of the most majestic beasts and if you encounter one ever in the wild in a truly wild place That's a very good way to realize what your place is in this world when we come back We'll continue chatting with Gareth Patterson We're chatting in fact about his latest book that he's just released which is called Beyond the Secrets elephants We'll get to that in just a bit All right, and we're back with their Gareth talking about about elephants now because you then said as you said earlier on you moved to nice now and you decided to focus more on These the nice the elephants and I mean I recalled Back when was it quite a while ago that this nice the elephants it was almost like one of those myths You know people talked about them, but nobody had ever seen them. They hadn't been seen for years. Then people were saying They were functionally extinct. So tell us a bit about your journey writing the secret elephants Yes, I moved down here in 2001 I first came to I first came to nice the by by default actually in 1999 because that was during the can't line saga and with the International Fund for Animal Welfare and various other people and And myself we rescued four lions which potentially we're going to end up in the can't line industry and we set up a 100 hectare natural habitat sanctuary the closest that it could be for those lions living in wild surroundings in in a in a reserve between Mossle Bay and and George and That was a success and those lions lived out the entire lives in that sanctuary and and that was that was a real Good project, but I came down here in 1990 to partly set that up And I I was you know being in the area close to nice now. I said to my girlfriend at the time Let's go. Let's go to nice know why would why we're here. I'd always been intrigued by the Story of the nice elephants. I remember, you know a couple of decades beforehand reading a marvelous book by a Fantastic former East African game warden called Nick Carter who studied the nice elephants in 69 and 70 and I was always intrigued by this, you know, this remnant population of African elephants the most southern southerly Elephants in in the entire world that had somehow, you know escaped total extermination, you know in this southern part of Africa and we and so we came to nice now and We were staying at the hotel in in eyes that called medieval ties and The whole link up with what's beyond the secret elephants is about about this Relic hominoids in this area. It's actually all began there and we had got to know the manager of the hotel and one morning He had given us directions on how to get into the forest We're taking a drive into the forest and he and he said to me he said to me Garrett when he'd read my books and He said to me, you know when this whole canned line thing when you finish with that You should come down here and perhaps study these lines And it was almost like he was reading my mind because I had some vague thoughts that you know Maybe I should come down here and see what to see for myself because people were describing them The authorities were describing them as a function the extinct Relation and then he turned around to me and said, you know, because actually there's this well First of all, he said us locals believe that there are certainly more than one nice elephant He says but there's actually something even more mysterious down here and He went on to proceed to to tell me about how some German guests of his Had had had recently Asked him like like my girlfriend Fransher at the time and Asked him dive up in directions to to go into the forest and which he duly did and they went off and he only saw them the following afternoon and They were very somber sitting in the bar in the hotel and he thought something was wrong here And he went up to them as a concerned hotel manager and said is everything okay?

And they said no, it isn't and he says what's wrong and he says no, we we followed your directions We went into the into the Neissner forest on the road to the Deepala Forestation and we saw three figures standing on the side of the road and they then these figures Julie they at first they they they thought it was it was people and then they saw these three mysterious figures run across the road and they were bipedal beings upright standing and covered in in hair and The the hotel manager immediately said no, no what you saw was baboons I mean the boons will stand upright for short occasions or whatever and they actually almost got annoyed with him These were very well traveled well educated people and they they replied that look You know, we we we certainly know what the boons are we saw a troop as we entered the as we were on the edge of the forest and these certainly weren't these these weren't baboons and they were clearly in a state of shock the manager told me and They promptly I think that very day or early the next morning They just booked out at the hotel and just got out of Neissner. They were in total shock of what they'd seen When he told us that story Immediately came to mind with me was yeah also baboon. I mean, I'm a fairly open-minded person But I felt that there must have been a logical explanation to to what they've seen anyway long story short We we drove into the forest first time that I'd ever been in Afrimon plain forest I mean totally different to the Savannah country that I'm used to I'm a I'm a dry bush person so to to see this incredible green dense world of Forest and of forest with these lemon colored shafts of light coming down and and into the Incredible incredible pain mountain pain, but country. I mean the pain boss is actually far thicker than the than the forest believe it or not I mean some of the pain boss out there prior to the 2018 wildfires in the mountains. I mean that thing boss the old thing boss could be 11 12 with high and I you know being a line an Elephant person the elephant side of me, you know thought, you know I mean, how can anyone know for certain that there's only one?

Elephant left here. I mean the indigenous forest alone is over 250 square kilometers and and the mountain pain boss is it's just practically endless I mean, it's just you know hundreds and hundreds of square kilometers and And as you well know, I mean even in the Kruger National Park I mean you don't need much vegetation to to Conceal or to hide a full-grown bull elephant, for example, I mean, they literally they literally are great ghosts you know as you know, and I figured in this sort of vegetation they could be any number of elephants here and And then two years later, I you know finishing off the camp line Story and then after exposing them a terrible situation

Also in the late 90s was the capture of 30 baby elephants from where I had studied lines in Botswana in the 2d bus Bushland 30 baby elephants were were captured and and were brought to South Africa and and sold to a wild animal trader And they were severely beaten Terrible cruelty and all the rest of it and I was in part in involved in in exposing that as well But after after that, yes, I we came down here in 2001 and very unobtrusively and in it in a totally in a In a baked what's the word? I'm thinking of non invasive way and started looking at Studying these nice and elephants and very early on I must admit I came down here in May 2001 and in August 2001 I was out one Sunday morning with friendship and we were walking off off one of the forest trails and I came across and I've seen signs of the elephants and From previous, you know signs it seemed definitely that there was definitely more than one elephant. I mean you can tell elephant ages by the time measuring the diameter of the of the of the hind foot the footprint and also by the circumference of done that gives you height and height gives you age and it was clear even then early days that there was more than One elephant, but that Sunday morning was extraordinary because I found signs of definitely more than one elephant I followed that we followed the signs and it led back onto the road and there was Clear clear sign. I mean, you don't have to be an elephant expert, which I'm not, you know Anyone could actually see that this is three different sized elephants walking down It recently rained for the the normally very hard substrate Which is very hard to find elephant spore here because it's so rocky and stony But rain had fallen the ground was moist and there was the clear imprints of three different sized elephants one small one one medium size and one that looked like it was the size of a young bull and young adult bull bulls their their their footprints and much larger Than a full-grown Adult cow, so you can differentiate between a bull and an account spore And we followed this spore for a few kilometers down the down this track we just followed it on forward until until they moved into through Feynbos and Plantation country until they they they went into the indigenous forest and then up on to one of their one of their really, they're quite hidden these elephant pathways that ancient historical pathways that they've been using for hundreds of years and they veered off onto this pathway and Disappeared and and so that was that was very very clear to me that At that stage there was at least three elephants around Fantastic we are turning to Gareth Patterson and We're going to we are sort of chatting but we needed to set up some background here about his latest book beyond the secret elephants We'll talk about that a little bit When we come back where you can get the books, etcetera, etc. Gareth's website those kind of things But when we come back, I want to continue the story because whilst you were you were busy with Your your book the secret elephants you did come across a couple of other things But at that stage you didn't want to detract from the elephant story. So when we come back, let's chat about that a bit Okay, great Right we're back and we are turning to my special guest at this time Gareth Patterson author of Several books and I've got to tell you one of the things Gareth that that has struck me since I first Read your I think your first book was cry for the lions Since I read that it's just the way that you write You know, it kind of takes you then and yes It is it is a bit of it's almost a little bit sciencey, but not terribly sciencey, but it you know, you can almost live The experience that you are having through your writings And I think that's one of the things that attracted me to the books is, you know My love for conservation and then of course the good writing so many books that you've written All of those are available now online. Am I correct?

They are they are all online my previous books and you know all those previous books if I I think this is I Had to check last night. I think this is the twelfth or twelfth one now but what is what is fantastic is that all those previous books that old books they're all available as ebooks on on Amazon and And very importantly considering the lockdown situation and all the rest of it at the moment the new one beyond the secret elephants and the one Previously published by my publisher Tracy McDonald publisher, which was my autobiography my my lion's heart Those two are also available on Amazon Kindle edition of those I'm gonna have to get all the Tracy. I haven't read that one yet. So I'm gonna give Tracy a shot. Excuse me I'd like to read that one as well One of the things what a what a lovely what a lovely lady is Tracy had So many times I've tried to get her to come on the show because she must have some amazing stories But she refuses point blank. She says not just the author

Yeah, I know she's absolutely fantastic what a wonderful publisher she is Fantastic. Well Gareth we were we were walking with elephants and the secret elephants just before we went into the break there But during this time and this was the lead-up I suppose to you eventually Publishing this new book of yours beyond the secret elephants because you started to hear these stories and see a couple of strange Weird and wonderful things talk to me a little bit about that Well, I mean, you know, I heard obviously, you know hearing that story back in 1999 from the hotel manager and then coming here in 2001 You know, I was very focused obviously on the elephants I mean the last thing on my mind was was a mysterious relic hominoid, you know existing in these forests, but but these stories started drifting towards me and One of the first times that you know, these stories about these beings came to me was that I was with a forestry department scientist Johan in his office one day and we were going through samples of elephant food types plants and we were doing some Identification of the of these of these trees and plants and all the rest of it which he was kindly helping me identify And then after the blue he he just said to me he says Gareth with all your, you know Roaming around the forest and the mountain fame boss. Have you ever come across a an upright standing?

bipedal furry human like person and You know, I was initially a little bit surprised by by this question and it immediately took me back You know to 1999 to what I've been told by the hotel manager and I said I said to him No, I said I haven't but what but why why do you ask and he says no because it's very strange he says because over over recent time we've had two very separate accounts by our forest workers that they have actually seen on different occasions on two different occasions such a being and and he you know, he was very intrigued about this and then And then another story drifted through to me I I live on where I'm speaking right now It's on the edge of the a beautiful place on the right on the edge of the forest And there's there's a few cabins and cottages here and one day I was heading out on foot to the forest to do elephant research and one of my neighbors stopped me and he worked for correctional services and You know, I wasn't advertising you know what I was doing it was very low-key elephant research, but we've got a cut about and and And this man said to me how's it going with the elephant research? and I told him and he said but you do know there's something even more mysterious than the elephants out here and Asked him about that then he recalled to me how his colleague at work as a very As a teat nature, I think it was with his brother Years and years and years ago with one Sunday morning with the parents in a in a Land Rover It was like a ritual thing every Sunday and the two boys with the parents would go for a drive in this Land Rover in the in the mountains and As they were driving along The two boys saw this upright standing figure and it moved away and both boys were totally shocked and this is something I'd get into a little bit later the shock that sets in when you see one of these things and They were speechless and they didn't mention anything to the parents until they got home And when they got home They told their parents what they had seen and and the parents dismissed it as no you what you saw were The boons now, this is a person who's you know born and bred in this area again He certainly knows what a baboon is and and you know, the boys knew that what they saw went for boons and I later interviewed this man and it was an interesting experience because he had Faced him and this brother had faced much ridicule over the years and they've got to the point all these years later that They didn't care about the ridicule any anymore. They knew what they had seen and And the man that she told me is actually, you know today We we still speak about it and we we we we see it as a real privilege to what we're able to To to have seen and so more and more of these stories started coming forward and then and then I I met a marvelous old lady She was probably the last of her generation of the original first people of this area the the the San a Marvelous lady called mrs. Jourdan who lived with her family Yeah, that was that's an amazing part I was actually going to ask you if you would share with us about mrs. Jourdan and and her son as well That's right. And one day I've always passed this little settlement On the way into the forest where it went mrs. Jourdan lived in a in in a very old quaint red-roofed house, which was actually parts of the original the side sling of the original railway that ran from from 1900 to 1940 from deep island forest station where they used to transport The timber out of the forest down into nice new town It ran for 40 years and her house was one of the one of the original dwellings along the the tracks of the the road of the of the railway, sorry and And I'd always wave to the people and and and then one Sunday again things do it to me things always happen on Sunday morning and I I Saw this man on the road and he flagged me down and he wanted it left and his name was boy and he was the son Of mrs. Jourdan we got chatting and he was on his way to see the family and he invited me to meet his family Which I I Julie did that Sunday and I got to know mrs. Jourdan very well over the years and she had spent more than 60 years living in the in the forest and she would chat to me about the elephant and She was a absolute mind of information about the forest and the elephants and the creatures and then one day I don't know how it came about she she told me about an encounter that she had had with what she referred to as as the oat on and You know, I've heard about these mysterious hominoids But I didn't have a local name and that was the first time that I realized that they had a local name Now it's very interesting with you know A tiny grouping of people are very small grouping of people that who live in the forest their entire life They don't really see the old tongue as something overly mysterious they see them as just another inhabitant of of of the forest like the leopard like the elephants like the bushbuck in the bush pig Which is different to people outside the forest and mrs. Jourdan told me about an extraordinary sighting that she had many many years ago when boy was Still a child and his his brothers and sisters with it was small and she was she was living in a little cottage at the At the Gona Forest station and one night it must have been summer because she had a kitchen window Open the children were asleep and she was at a kitchen table doing crochet or knitting and she had a little dog called Tammy at her feet and Tammy started growling and it it was I think must have been about 9 10 o'clock at night or something like that and and and And and she she got hold of her torch and she shone out of the kitchen Window and she couldn't see anything and she went went back to the kitchen table and her knitting remembering that she had she knew all about earth tongue because the people they do come across the the footprints of these beings sometimes these beings will Dash across the road in front of the headlights of vehicles driving through on the main roads at night There's there's a national road that runs through the forest the national park here So she knew about these beings and then she sat down and then Tammy started growling again and she got up and she shone with her torch out to out the window towards her vegetable garden and learn behold to her Astonishment there was this this figure a man-like figure standing by the vegetable garden She watched it for a while then it sort of turned to one side as if listening to something and in the flash it was gone and She went back to the table and then she was in shock She was in shock and then minutes or quite a few minutes later Then she heard the rumbling of a truck or a pickup or something a Bucky Coming along in front of the cottage and and then she realized that obviously the Otang had heard this a long time before she had and and And and she almost like scared herself by Almost dared herself because then she she actually went To her kitchen door and opened it a little bit and shone around With the torch and she didn't see anything but she smelled this very very pungent smell There's an African term. I think for it what she described. I can't remember what it is, but basically it means she described what she smelled as being like a worked horse or a sweaty horse a very very pungent smell and Then and she obviously she didn't sleep well that night and in the morning she was half thinking that she dreamt this whole episode and before the children woke up at just that sunrise she she she she went outside and Walked up to the vegetable patch and lo and behold there was these footprints there And then she realized that she certainly hadn't imagined this whole thing fantastic and when we come back again, we're gonna wrap up with Gareth in we come back but I Am fascinated because you've heard a lot of these stories. So when we come back We'll talk a little bit more about that and wrap it up because the big question of course that I'd like to ask Gareth is Have you seen one when we come back? We'll discuss that

It is what's involved and we are chatting with Gareth Patterson about his latest book Beyond the Secret Elephants We're talking about and I always because I'm so used to saying or rang a tang I never sure if I can pronounce it correctly. Is it an ottang o tang? it's o tongue and I think it doesn't I think it actually does derive from from from the word orangutan because it's like the closest That the people could of a point of reference of what these beings look like So I think it is like a derivative of the term of the name orangutan. So it's Oton yeah Okay, because I mean for years and years. I mean ever since I can remember we've heard about In North America, for example the Bigfoot or where was the other one in Himalayas the Yeti? there's the One in Sumatra as well So people have seen all over the world these what you mentioned that you call them relict hominids But I mean, you know initially somebody would say listen, I'm not sure what they're feeding you then Nazna But you you you've got to be crazy But I mean Jane Goodall George Scheller and also professor Jeff Meldrum. They've all publicly stated that they are open-minded about the possible Existence of beings like these and to me that is absolutely fascinating that in a world as technologically advanced as ours There's still so much we don't actually know Exactly. I mean, that's the whole point and and you know, and like you say, I mean Jane Goodall is very open George Scheller Jeff Meldrum Our very own world renowned paleontologist. Dr. Robert and brain

Dr. Ian Redmond who worked with Diane Fossey world renowned primary ontologist who very kindly wrote the foreword and to be on the Secret elephants more and more people are open minded. The thing is is that humankind has actually always shared shared the landscape historically over hundreds of thousands of years with other We're discovering more and more today with other species of hominoids The interesting thing is is why perhaps You know, we think for the first time in our existence We're not still sharing the landscape with these beings So so we are much more aware of the situation and like you said I mean it makes us understand that we don't know Everything about what exists that there are mysteries out there. There are places that we have not explored I mean, we only got to think that the mountain gorilla was only discovered so-called discovered By Westerners, I mean known by the local people just like the hotel and being known by local people for centuries here the mountain gorilla was only discovered in 2002 the Akapi the year before and then closer to home Obviously the sealer can't Which was thought to be an extinct. I think about 65 million years ago was was discovered Here in South Africa in 1938 there was a new species of arangutan that Ian Redmond told me about or mentioned I think it was last year or 2018 I think it's called the two from newly in Sumatra again Which was this new species was discovered

Just recently 800 individuals and And so the list goes on new species of monkeys are being discovered in their Amazon on a yearly basis So the frightening thing is is that we're probably

There's species going extinct before we can even identify them scientifically, you know So, you know that is that's an extraordinary and an extremely worrying situation as well. So yeah, it's It's all very very interesting. Yeah, sorry

No, not at all I'm finding this fascinating but Gareth in you know Was it a tough decision to to bring out beyond the secret elephants because and I've got to tell you if you're listening to this You've got to get the book it is you can actually read it as a standalone book I would recommend that you read secret elephants as well just to get a bit of an idea But beyond the secret elephants is a standalone book and it's not just about the otang Okay there's a lot about the elephants in there and I don't want to spoil too much of the book because it would be quite easy for Me to sit here and chat to you for hours Gareth But you know, what sort of a difficult choice was it to go? Okay, I've heard these stories I'm going to sort of do some research and write a book about it. Was it difficult? it it it was it was difficult in the sense that I Mean beyond the secret elephants is obviously the sequel of the first one that the secret elephants But the secret elephants book and writing that actually taught me a lesson people were saying to me No, no You mustn't write a book about the nice net elephants because before you know it there's going to be hundreds of people marching all over the forest trying to find find the elephants and all this kind of thing and I knew I Learned a lesson from that because I knew that that wouldn't occur because the elephants are so elusive They are so well hidden. No one can set out To to track down nice net elephants with any hope of actually finding them I mean, there's so few people who with any sort of guarantee could actually do that And it's probably only of my two colleagues at Sand Park the forest guards Wilfred and and Carl Who have been out there for three decades?

But even them or even myself knowing of secret places of the elephants like I do You know, there's no guarantees that even the three of us can find these elephants that these that was demonstrated very briefly I just tell the story. We were making a film back in 2008 a documentary with Animal Planet called ironically the search for the nice net elephant and The filmmaker friend of mine Mark van bake he spent two weeks filming with me and then he spent two weeks solid with the guards trying to track down nice net elephants to film The elephants or an elephant or whatever they could get and they spent two weeks out there and they got close to One ball but couldn't film film him and then on the very very last day of filming of I mean It was up the you know the budgeted for one month and that was it and on the very last day as the Sun was going down Mark said and they're on the spore of this elephant and mark said okay guys We just got to go back to the vehicle and accept the fact. We're not going to get the footage They got into the vehicle. They were driving away. The light was beautiful Mark is such an artist when it comes to Filming and he was looking at the light and he just said to forest guard Wilfred He said look at this light. Imagine if an elephant came out here and then Seconds later Wilfred tapped mark on his knee and said look there he is and on this overgrown path Road there was this elephant and it was just standing there and Mark got out of the vehicle put his sandbag on the on the bonnet of the vehicle and he filmed six minutes of This elephant the elephant just stayed there. I mean the elephant was well aware that it was there and and And those six minutes, I mean it was, you know, absolutely extraordinary and that elephant had deliberately shown itself It could have walked one two three steps and disappeared But it stayed there and so but and and and they wouldn't have got that footage if the elephant hadn't showed it So that's how exclusive anyway long story short. I knew by writing about the nice new elephants. I was not endangering them To people and exposures to people and so that taught me a lesson when it came to the otung the otung are perhaps even more elusive than the elephants themselves and so by writing about them In part, I wrote I wrote because I had so many eye witness reports and these these people have come forward to me Even subsets even after the publication of the book with book only came out in January and I have I have people Coming forward to me now They they are relieved to be able to tell their eyewitness accounts of what they've seen because they've kept quiet about this for years And years and years not telling spouses or family or anything about it because of the fear of ridicule They've kept it to themselves I've had an 80 year old lady contact me a few weeks ago after reading Beyond the secret elephant and she told me about her sighting 60 years ago more than 60 years ago But she had never told anyone about which which took place in the basically past all those years ago when she when she was a teenager or whatever and so I wrote this book partly to give validation of Indication really of you know, four people who have seen it Has gone through the shock of seeing these beings and have kept it to themselves all the time I I I I can see now that sightings are actually not that uncommon and And and and so that's partly why I wrote the book. So answering your question. I'm glad I wrote it Yes, it was challenging, but I had had no doubt that I'm not going to be endangering I'm not exposing them to the wrong side of of people and at the same time I've given Indication validation for eyewitnesses and this this I think is ongoing I mean, I'm getting from time to time every week I'm someone's coming forward telling me of their amazing eye witness accounts, which are so detailed that they can't be fabricated, you know and the this and Consistency of the almost post-traumatic stress disorder that people go through Seeing something that according to science doesn't exist and it is a shocking experience with my very first Sighting took place again on a Sunday morning. Sorry to sound like that But I was wondering I was I was moving back from a marvelous place that I don't go back to anymore because it's the elephant's place it's place I called the secret place of the elephants where they drink from a A spring in the in the mountainsides where this is incredible little spring with very very Wonderful water elephants are connoisseurs of water and they routinely go there to drink from this little spring and I was walking back And it was a clear day. I was clear minded Beautiful day. Everything great. Last thing on my mind Strange hominoids out there. Nothing like that on my mind. I was heading home and I was walking along and I think You you will know what i'm talking about being a bush person We we know when we don't even have to be a bush person You can be in a restaurant and turn around you know when someone is looking at you you fill the stair You know, yeah, and I felt as if something was looking at me and I I turned around Carried on walking It was almost like as if when i'm in the bush and you've got a large predator is actually looking at you You don't stop and stare at it because they can perceive that as a threat rather Just keep on walking and keep it in the side of your eyes And that's what I did that morning. I felt something looking at me I turned and I saw just showing itself just emerging a little bit just behind it There was a stand of pine trees and this being probably about five foot I think about five foot three or four whatever was just leaning slightly out and and looking at me and I saw it and um For some reason I sensed it was female. I can't put a finger on why I sensed the curiosity of this being I carried on walking for Think about a kilometer or kilometer and a half I've kept it for those few seconds as much as possible Inside of my vision and then just kept carried on walking And then then I turned around after about a kilometer. So I turned around I couldn't see anything And then i'm literally with my rucks. I I literally just sunk to the ground And that's when the the first initial shock hit me and I felt as if I was in some sort of fog I was in some sort of bubble, you know, it was a beautiful day But I felt in a fog and I just put my hands over my eyes of my eyes. I just I mean it was total shock and When that lifted a bit then I started to to to walk back to where I'd left the vehicle And then later on back at home. I I recounted this to To my girlfriend at the time cruncher and I told her about it and then during the writing of the secret elephants I contacted her and I said because I can't remember her reaction And then she described what you know, what I was saying how I was almost like doubting what i'd seen And I kept on talking about it. And then it was almost I resigned myself one day to say Yes, you you saw what you saw And it was a reddit commonoid

That is absolutely amazing and I can just imagine if you see something like that I mean, I know the experience of being in the bush and suddenly it's almost as though an elephant materializes A couple of places away from you. Um, and I know that kind of thing But at least you have a frame of reference your brain can go. Ah elephant. Okay, good But something like this And and it's not the first time you saw them either you did see them again I did so that was the first I think I think was july. I think it's around about july august 2002 and then in 2005 I was I was I was out doing work doing research on a road. That is like a A forest track. There's like a cul-de-sac because there's only one way in and one way out and I was I was walking I was walking along and I had Quite tall fame bus to on my left hand side and and plantations. I think to the right on this track and Again, I wouldn't think I was focusing on elephants and looking for signs of the elephant And then suddenly I heard this movement actually very close to me You know, it's like three four meters away from me and I just saw this this figure. Um Very broad shoulders had it back to me. It was it was leaping away from me Um into into the fame bus Um very broad. I mean like a bodybuilder's build, you know slim waist broad shoulders And and and it dashed dashed away in retrospect. Um, I tend to think that this was a a sub-adult Today i'd like to almost say that it was almost mischievous in the sense that it probably sent me coming along from it or saw me coming along the road from a long distance away and And and then just leapt away at the last moment and then It was 2009

Um, I was out I was going to check a a trail camera of mine and again, not even thinking about these beings and that was an extraordinary experience because I was under the impression that they are relatively Uh quite small or sort of human height more more more like the one I saw, you know, five and a half feet or whatever and um I was on the way to the trail camera and I just heard a big disturbance amongst some Young eucalyptus and bain bottle, whatever it was and and I just saw this Really tall figure has been six and a half seven foot tall Running away from left to right. I was on the edge of a of a gorge A very very deep gorge and it was dashing away in panic in absolute panic Uh, I mean that was startling enough, but it would have been even more startling if it just stood and looked at me I mean that would have been terrifying. You don't want to see these beings. I mean it is it is It is shocking and this being just ran from left to right and crashing through. I mean it was so noisy It was crashing through at high speed towards the gorge and and it disappeared and I The last sighting that I've had I've heard them and and had things happened and found tree structures that they build and all this sort of stuff Consequently, but the last sighting that I had I think was 2017 that was very very intriguing because I wasn't alone Be it with um the elephants or anything in the forest in the fame post I love it when i'm with people and people hear or see things before I do And what i've done for a number of years here because of people reading the secret elephants Um, i've started a um, um, a sort of mini expedition a half. Well often it's a full day um Whereupon I I take people out into the forest and and introduce them another search for the elephants It's it's a it's an introduction into the elephant's mysterious world um and It's called the secret elephant's forest experience and in 2017 I was with It's normally a group of four But this was a group I think about six or seven people were in a convy type bus And we stopped at a place to look down this deep gorge Actually, not now. I think about it. Not that far away from where I had the sighting of the tall one And people and they were very well educated people Well traveled people they they'd each one of the people had read the secret elephant And and we've had a fantastic time in the forest and the fame post and we're about half an hour away from where I live And we stopped at this high point and we're looking down at this pool and the lady had, um binoculars And she was looking down at the pool as well. And then suddenly she she said to me garret garret quite urgently She says what is that? And she was pointing down towards the pool And we all looked we all looked down And and there there we saw for a few seconds this upright walking figure Its body was about three quarters to us And it was heading off to Um a stony rocky area. It seemed like they were caves There are caves there And then when it disappeared then I just had these astonished faces of these people looking at me my guests looking at me They said garret what on what on earth was that?

And and I said to them I said you've all read the secret elephants now in the secret elephants I'd actually mentioned in a couple of pages just briefly because I didn't want it to track from the elephants in that Book i've mentioned very briefly about the legends of the otung or the existence and the local people knowing about it And I said I said to them you read that section and they said I said that's what you that's what you saw And then again the shock Set in and this was a very cheerful group of people We'd had a fantastic time out there When we got back into that vehicle that half an hour drive to where they're going to drop me off where I live No one spoke And it was only if the silence was only broken What was when we got to my gate and the people said goodbye and they drove away Otherwise it was total silence and that is the shock that people go through Um when they see such a such a being And and this is this is duplicated around the world where these really commoners have seen whether it's sasquatch bigfoot Yeti or anpending or whatever people go into into a shop

Well, I I can imagine and I think it's that that's partly because science says they don't exist partly because Of I think the arrogance of human beings. We'd like to think that we're the only upright walking hominids around but Yeah, I don't know a lot of people a lot of people are probably going to go no and I believe that it's highly possible With your record having seen these beings Um, I see no reason to doubt anything you say. Um, my wish though is that I don't know It's like do we want to know more about them or do we just want to let them alone? Because they must have really wherever they are in the world already suffering from this human encroachment into their territories and environments Maybe we just want to kind of leave them alone. I don't know what you're feeling there I think I think I think I think what we've got to do is For their own sake have some sort of recognition of of their existence and with that As you very rightly said, um, we need to with with the impact of humankind With the recognition of their existence, then we have the responsibility of stewardship of them Uh what I mean by stewardship is is you know, they're a type of people, you know, and we're encroaching on their habitat Just like with you know encroaching on everything else um, and we need to you know, recognize them and and and and try and stop as much of the encroachment and It's very interesting. You've got um in butang in in in mille as that tiny country they have known about what What we call the yeti, uh, they've known about it for for centuries and Incredible foresightedness of the government of butang In in the sense that several years ago. They actually because the people the local people and this is a very important thing when local people Tell me about the existence of something I could I take it pretty seriously because if anyone knows it's the local people who've been there forever and the local people believe in this relic commonoid there and the government with with great foresight that actually created a reserve a national park which is formed created partly for the for the protection and and The steward not stewardship but the custodianship or the recognition of these beings in that that part of the world these relic commonoids, I mean There's reports of them sightings of them even australia. It's known as the yoi in south america It's on every continent on the earth apart from antarctica

It's it's it's absolutely fascinating guys, we're gonna have to we're gonna have to say goodbye to you at this time, but uh Thank you so much for for taking the time out for chatting to us Um, the books are available on amazon. Uh, you can go to garrett's website as well, which is garrett patterson It's p a double t e r s o n garrett patterson.com And uh, you can find out more garrett Once again, thank you. It's been great. We need to talk some more. I think where to next for you as we say Goodbye, what's next for garrett? Well, firstly, thanks. Thank you very much. David. It's been great speaking to you What i'm what i'm i'm going to be continuing, um with my with my work, um here Partly on the elephants always keeping an eye open for them Um, you know keeping as much as I can and an eye over them and that you know that Nothing detrimental is impacting on on them, but also on the otang but in a very very non-invasive way You know, I I have got nothing to prove to anyone if people want to believe Um, then that's great. If they don't then that's their progress. I'm not there to prove anything Nothing can take away what i've seen and what the other people what many other people have seen But what I you know, the way that i'm approaching it from now on is to know More about that i'm not i'm not rushing out there to try and get sightings. I'm not putting trail cameras out there To to try and get they avoid trail cameras anyhow. They know they they they're very aware No one has actually got a picture of beef the sasquatch big foot or whatever with a trail camera They they know their environment so well, they know when something is strange or whatever in their environment But I want to go about it in a very non-intrusive non-invasive way and just look at the behavioral ecology of these animals and just of these beings just try to get to know more about um Just like I would any other species, you know knowing about their range their occurrence That that that what they feed on all these kinds of things just to just to learn more about them, I mean it's just a It's just extraordinary that they exist and and just to learn more about them But being very very sensitive to them at the same time like I have been with the with the nicer elephants Wonderful stuff gareth. Thank you again so much Yeah, once this whole pandemic thing, it's it's one of those things It's kind of been on my bucket list for a while as to go and check out the forests around us And I would certainly love to come and do that and maybe sit down have a cup of coffee or something So uh until then and uh until we're out of this Thank you again and all the best to you gareth. Well, you'd be very welcome Anytime you'd like to come down I can I can hear that your kindred spirits in that regard So it'd be it's great to show you around and thanks for having me on the show Wonderful stuff. There we go. That's gareth patterson that we were chatting to Fascinating once again, uh all of those books and I think there are 12 in total are available on amazon gareth patterson Um, but uh this latest one the the secret elephants and beyond the secret elephants Uh, definitely definitely well worth the read