Johan Fourie — Our Long Walk To Economic Freedom

And once again, it is what's involved as always. Good to have you along with us. Now, you know, I like finding and chatting to interesting people and people who have experience and who do wonderful things. And I get a lot of books that come across my desk. And one of them that I got is a book entitled Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom. Lessons from 100,000 years of human history. And the first thing I saw was economic and I thought economics and I was absolutely terrified. And I thought, all right, but hang on, let's have a look and see if it's something I can understand. And then I went one better and I decided I'd love to speak to the author. So we say welcome to you, Professor Johan Fari. - It's great to be here. Thanks, David. - Okay, so we're gonna get into the book in just a little bit, but give me a bit of Johan's background. Where did you start? How did you get into what, you know, where did you get to and what made you wanna write a book? - Well, I guess a bit about me is that I studied at Stonymosh undergrad, did economics and then post-grad as well. And then was appointed as a lecturer basically immediately after as an actually specialist in international trade. And then through a weird serendipitous conference happened to bump into an economic historian and basically the rest is history.

I kind of fell in love with the field, did my PhD at Utrecht University in the Netherlands. And since basically about a decade ago, I've been teaching economic history at Stonymosh in the economics department. And ultimately the book is the culmination of a course that I've been teaching since then. So I've had a lot of time to think about it, but ultimately when, you know, lockdown came, it was about, I guess, just sitting down and writing it up. Obviously classes had to move online. And so we couldn't have the same interaction as before. And I just thought the students needed a bit more content than what they could get in an online lecture. So ultimately it was never really the purpose to write a book for a public audience, but after a couple of chapters were circulated, the students came back and said, well, you know, I think their family and friends would enjoy this as well. And so then the idea was born to actually make this more widely accessible. - I gotta admit it is because, you know, when I was in school that the whole concept of economics and business economics scared the laugh out of me. And then along comes this book and I thought, hold on. So essentially what you've done is you've taken, if I can be so bold, you've taken economics out of the classroom, you've made it accessible and you've made it entertaining.

At least that's been my take on it. Is that the kind of feedback you've gotten so far? - Yeah, I think so. I think it's also, you know, when people think about economics and certainly the economics that you're encountering your first, second and third year, it's very kind of model-based, it's quite mathematical. And what I've tried to do is to show that there's a different side, a human side to it, I guess, by incorporating history. And so we all love to tell stories. We humans, we love to learn by listening to stories. And so the purpose here is really to kind of show that a lot of the historical stories, that the stories that we kind of familiar with and often associate with say, political events, you know, history is filled with revolutions and wars and these kinds of things. And more even social, cultural, often underpinned by economic events or economic kind of factors. And so, and that's really the purpose of the book is to show that economics actually have this huge, hugely important, expandatory power in a lot of the things that we observe around us today. So it's not just, of course, those models are important. We wanna, you know, predict what's gonna happen in the future. We wanna think hard about economic policy and model, you know, modeling these kinds of different macroeconomic relationships, for example, are important.

But I think if we really also wanna understand how valuable economics is to our broader understanding of the world, then this is what this book tries to highlight. - Okay, and it does, but there's some fascinating bits in it. I mean, right off the bat, okay? Chapter one, you asked the question there, and that's actually what got my attention initially, is who are the architects of Wakanda? Now, everybody knows the Marvel Universe and the Black Panther, et cetera, et cetera. Talk to me about that. Why that particular title? - Yeah, I think the first chapter really just sets up, you know, the field almost of economic history. And, you know, whenever I get a kind of invitation to contribute to, say, a collective volume, it's to write the chapter on Africa, and then typically that chapter is, you know, towards the end of the book, it's typically actually the last chapter in the book. And so Africa kind of is always left to the periphery in kind of discussions on global economic history. And actually, you know, that's certainly not, that shouldn't be the case. And so the point really here is to show that if you bring Africa in from the outside and you kind of start with Africa at the kind of center of the discussion, there is so much that one can learn from our history.

And of course, it's not only a kind of recent history, it's a really deep history. And so the first, the chapter after that is about the out-of-Africa migration. And so that's really the purpose, I guess, of the book is, and I'm fortunate that it's now, the book has now been, the international rights have been purchased, and so it will hopefully get a global audience. And the purpose really was to show that African economic history is at the center, and Africa is at the center of our understanding of economics and kind of development more broadly. - All right, but now, how do you come to that specific conclusion?

- You mean the Wakanda? - Well, not only the Wakanda, but that we are at the center because for so long, we've been marginalized. I mean, you know, the dark continent, the shame, those poor people in Africa kind of things. Now you're saying, but hang on, this is where everything starts. Talk to me about that. - Yeah, you know, that's set me true. And to some extent, it's understandable, right? So there's obviously a much longer written history in many other parts of the world, Europe, for example, and so on with it. And of course, it's also England and Europe that experience an industrial revolution first. And so there's a lot of firsts that do not happen in Africa, but there's also a lot of things that do happen in Africa. And I guess the kind of Eurocentric focus of global economic history courses have overemphasized those events and under-emphasized a lot of the things that did happen in Africa. And we can go back, you know, millennia. And so there's a couple of chapters on this. There's, for example, a chapter on the Bantu migration, which is a huge event in world history. It's not only, you know, have implications for Africa, but global implications. But then there's a chapter, for example, on, you know, the Mali empire and Mansa Musa and the incredible wealth that he had amassed during his life.

And, you know, he's still the only person, you know, the only individual to single-handedly influence the price of gold. So it's, I think, a fascinating history. It's, of course, also a history that perhaps have been under-emphasized because it is only followed after, say, you know, the 13th, 12th century. So kind of this early medieval period in Europe is kind of a, you know, dark period. It's really only after that that you see the emergence of the scientific revolution. And then after that, the industrial revolution. Whereas in Africa, during this time, it was a period of, you know, certainly in West Africa and North Africa, a period of kind of education, of new discovery, of innovation. And I think that's an important history to tell. And I think the final thing is even more recently, our view of Africa certainly has been, I think, clouded by the events of, say, the 1980s and 1990s, when certainly African economic growth was peltry or even negative in many cases. And there were terrible events, you know, from famines to the genocide that happened across the continent. But if you go back only, you know, four or five decades earlier, so take the 1950s, then the average urban wage for an unskilled laborer in Africa was higher than it was in Asia.

And so African comparative development actually, if you look back to the 1950s, which is not that long ago, the future actually for Africa seemed very bright compared to, for example, Asia. And of course, we know what happened since. But the point is that, you know, this idea that Africa has always been poor, and we have to think about why that is, that's just historically inaccurate. And, you know, more recent evidence where we collect wages, we've got a whole host of different innovative techniques that we use to try and understand different living standards at different times in history, expose those contradictions actually almost in the, I guess, the popular mindset that most of us obviously have. And so I think that's really what the book also tries to highlight, is that perhaps we don't actually know our own history that well, and if we do know it, then that kind of changes the way we think about our continent and perhaps even our own identity in it. - Wonderful stuff. My special guest is Professor Johan Fourie. We're talking about his book "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom". This is what's involved. We'll be back in just a bit. And we're back with my special guest. It's Johan Fourie, "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom", lessons from 100,000 years of human history.

Johan, I wonder if we could dive into some of these chapters that you did, because you've come up with such fascinating sort of headings for them. I mean, and I want you to help me out here. And then just give people a taste of what's in the book. What does Charlemagne and King's Relatini have in common? Because off the top of my head, I would have said absolutely nothing, but that's not true. Talk to me about that. - Yeah, I guess most of us wouldn't think that there's any link between them or correlation, but actually the two gentlemen share quite a lot. The focus of that chapter is actually on feudalism. And so it's really kind of the feudal institutions that was present in Charlemagne's time around the year 800 or so.

And it's still present in many parts of South Africa today. In the former homelands with traditional leaders and the traditional leaders, you have very similar kinds of institutions. And the point is really to expose that and to show that what we could expect in terms of economic growth in those places would be very similar then to what we could expect of economic growth in Charlemagne's time, which was pretty low. And there's reasons for that. Those institutions create certain incentives and those incentives are not always conducive to improvements in productivity. And I kind of focus, I guess, again, the chapter is, I've been blamed, I guess, a bit for clickbait titles. I didn't think of them as clickbait titles, but to some extent, that's an accurate description. But it's not only focusing on the homelands, for example, the feudal institutions. We have even institutions that are similar to guilds. And so these are something like the, like SICA, for example, the accounting profession, is to a very much extent share very similar characteristics than the guilds of medieval Europe. Like to kind of protect a certain profession to not allow competition. And so I think it's useful to sometimes have those comparisons because we think we've, you know, we've moved into a new era of free markets, but actually many of those older institutions tend to persist even into the present.

- Which I find fascinating because I must be honest, you know, before getting into this book, my grasp of economics and macroeconomics was slim to none, to say the least. I mean, I've spouted out to people before, you know, well, you know, Africa and South Africa in general would have been a whole lot better off, but remember how the rest of the world got riches by taking Africans and making them into slaves. That's been a favorite topic of mine. And then also, you know, in terms of people coming into Africa and South Africa and pillaging it. And then I generally end off one of those rants with my feeling that Africa and South Africa is destined to become an economic powerhouse in the world. So do your ideas that you put into the book fit anywhere within my very, very flimsy framework? - Well, I certainly show you a view that, you know, we can be hopeful of the continent's future. And there's a chapter towards the end. I think the second or third last chapter is exactly, you know, why that could be. And the focus there is very specifically on services and exporting services. I think that, you know, the view of Africa typically is one where we tend to think of African history, the first thing is slavery, and then the second thing is colonialism.

And of course, those were major events. And these chapters are actually dedicated, I think, two chapters on slavery and the chapter on colonialism. And, but I don't think that should define the continent. Certainly, it has affected its economic trajectory. But, you know, the point of the book really is to say that if we wanna kind of think about the lessons from economic history and what the most telling ones are, then it's that, you know, those that have been successful, whether that's people or countries or regions or whatever, it's really about ingenuity and innovation and productivity growth. You know, you get rich not by stealing, but by innovating. And there's some examples of that happening in Africa too. So I would be cautious to say that, you know, those slave traders became rich because they were trading in slaves. Yes, perhaps some of them in a certain time period, but certainly the Industrial Revolution, England is not a consequence. They're not rich because of an empire or because of slavery. In fact, the Industrial Revolution happens almost exactly at the time when slavery ends. And, you know, slavery has been an institution that has persisted across the world globally throughout human history.

So if slavery is indeed the reason for prosperity, then we should have had an Industrial Revolution much earlier. This is, of course, not to dismiss, you know, the incredible tragedies that came with slavery. But I don't think one should think, and certainly I think the economic history profession in general agrees that slavery is not necessary for economic growth, right? There are other kinds of ways innovation, again, I want to stress, is the way to really prosper. And so, you know, you can, again, just also do some kind of back of the envelope calculation. The world is about eight times larger in population size than it was when kind of slavery ended. But it's 18 times more effluent on average globally, right? So the average person is 18 times more effluent than the average person in the 1800. And so we've just become so much more effluent than we've ever been. And that's not through exploitation, but again, through the innovation, the new tools, the technologies that allow us to do more with less. And really, you know, the way I try to do it in the book, I guess, is to say, if you think about it as a kind of game of monopoly, we tend to think that this is the way the world works, is that, you know, everyone gets an equal amount of money, and then there's ultimately one whenever it ends up with everything and everyone else loses.

And so it's kind of a zero sum game. Whereas I think a much better metaphor would be like, it is "Setters of Catan", where, I don't know if, you know, listeners know what "Setters of Catan" is, but it's a game where everyone starts with like a village and a town, and ultimately the winner is 10 points. But by the end of the game, everyone has got a thriving civilization because you trade and you produce resources. And so I think that's the way to think about the world, rather than a game where for, you know, certain individuals to be better off, others must be worse off. - I have to tell you, I smiled when I got to that bet about the "Setters of Catan", and I thought the reason I'm smiling is that every single geek out there is going to know exactly what you're talking about. And those of you who don't know, it's a fantastic game. Man, you can have literally hours and hours and hours of fun. So, no, that was something, and I love that analogy. You know, it's about, you know, there's something that's been coming to the fore more and more often, there's this whole concept of together we rise. And I think in terms of, you know, South Africa and Africa, we're getting there, we're getting there.

But when we come back, I'd like to chat a little bit more about some of the chapters as we get to towards the end of the book, because you've got one there, and it's all about South Africa's industrialization, but the chapters entitled, "How Did Einstein Help Create Eskom?" I want to get into that when we come back. This is "What's Involved?" My special guest, Professor Johan Fari, author of "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom". We'll be back in just a bit. And we're back, it is "What's Involved?" My special guest is Professor Johan Fari, talking about his book, "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom". As I said earlier, it's one of those things. I love recommending books and talking about books that I get value from, because I consider myself somewhat of an everyman. But in terms of economics, just to help you understand a little bit more and the way this book has been put together and written is brilliant. And Johan, you said initially when you did this, when you wrote the book, it wasn't intended for general public consumption. And yet, it's, you know, when I think of you in terms of being a lecturer and in, you know, the history of economics and economic history, et cetera, et cetera, I automatically default to, it's gonna be dry and dusty and you're going to want to stick needles in your eyes.

And this book is not like that. It's not this dry, dusty tome or treaties. Did you set out to do that? - Yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess it's almost forced on you if you're a lecturer, because you have to get the attention of students, right? And you now have to compete not only with, I guess, coffee outside, but students can, you know, listen to podcasts and they can download websites and visit websites on their phone. And so you have to grab the attention. And so the way to do that is to tell interesting stories. And so it's a combination of course of, you know, it's not just stories, because otherwise, you know, stories must have some kind of meaning, I guess, attached to them if you want to learn something new. And so it's combining the, I guess, the interesting little tidbits with a more profound message. And that's really how I try to do it also in each of these chapters. I also try and keep the chapters pretty short. So I think they're like 2,000 to 2,500 words, so that, you know, otherwise you just kind of, you lose interest and there are just other more interesting things. Maybe, you know, maybe it is a, it can, I guess, be also considered slightly superficial. Obviously there's not a lot of depth in these chapters.

There's a lot more to say. There's a lot, much larger literature behind this. And I guess that's why it's an undergraduate course, if you were to specialize, you would go deeper. But that's why I think it is such an accessible book, because you don't need any background in it. And you can read these stories and you can either just see them as stories, or if you read between the lines, you might see the more profound message in them. - Well, it certainly has brought a couple of things into a little bit more clarity for me, but you've got to tell me, please, how Einstein helped to create Escombe. And did he foresee the current problem that we are having?

- Well, I mean, that's, I guess, where the valid critique is of a click by title. So it's, of course, not Einstein who himself created Escombe, but he was kind of indirectly responsible for it. It's a fascinating story. I won't tell the entire story because I don't think we've got time. But basically there's the South African student, Postdoc, really, who spends just before the First World War some time in Dresden in Germany. And he's basically asked, and I suspect it's because he can speak English, to host this American physicist from the University of Chicago, Robert Milligan. And they walk the streets of Dresden and talk about their research. And actually Robert is there, basically to present a paper that dismisses the ideas of Einstein. And this postdoc, the South African postdoc listens to this story and he just, he doesn't agree with him. He says, well, in my experiments, I think I found a way to explain what you have found. And it's not because Einstein is wrong. It's because you haven't thought about this specific thing. And this Robert Milligan is quite a famous professor already. And so he doesn't like this idea that this postdoc is telling him that his research is wrong, but he presents his paper, he goes back to Chicago and then he realizes actually, well, this postdoc did have something that, you know, there was some validity to it, he publishes the paper and he ultimately wins the Nobel Prize for it without citing this postdoc incidentally.

But he does reward him to return the favor by actually getting him a job in the US just before the outbreak of the First World War. And this postdocs name is Indrik van der Beel. So he becomes, he starts working in the, you know, telegraph, telephone industry. He basically designs kind of light bulbs as well for the First World War, he writes a textbook. And then he writes this paper, which Jan Smits picks up and reads and realizes this paper is about what South Africa's industrial future could be like. And then Jan Smits presumably phones him up and invites him back to South Africa and so he becomes, he's appointed in government and basically he's appointed to establish ESCOM. And so that's really how Einstein was responsible for ESCOM's founding. And of course, this is a, you know, it's not only ESCOM that he established to see, it's also ESCOM that he creates and a host of different other government institutions that is responsible really for the industrialization of South Africa. - That's a fantastic story. Then also we move on and in subsequent chapters, we talk about apartheid and the economies of apartheid or the economics of apartheid. One of the things that, you know, people point out a lot these days is back in the good old days, you know, ESCOM still worked and arms course still worked and everything.

What sort of impact did politics and apartheid have on our economics?

- Yeah, sure, that's a big question. I mean, there are two chapters dedicated to that period, right, to the period. So the one is on the industrialization and the other one basically tries to understand where did this, the kind of money come from for government to allow them to do a lot of these things. And, you know, the main answer there is that it was the relatively low wages of, that was paid to black mine workers that allowed these high mining profits, which paid also for taxes, you know, to the government. So it's an interesting period. I think we tend to think of the apartheid period. If you just look at the economic growth rate, I think a lot of commentators typically would say, well, you know, the country had four or five or 6% growth rate for the decade or two. One should keep in mind that this is the period of kind of the golden capitalism period where, you know, the entire world, at least the Western world is experiencing massive growth, post-World War reconstruction. And then of course South African resources are in high demand. And so again, with low wages, very high profitability of the mines, and of course also government investment in the infrastructure that we typically associate with building a manufacturing industry.

You do see the kind of relatively high wages, but of course we don't know what the counterfactual is, right? So that's partly, I think the big thing that economic historians think about is, we can say, yes, these were high growth rates, but in a counterfactual world where, where, you know, labor was, could be represented, for example, or where there weren't these discriminatory and repressive labor laws like the Kalabar or other kinds of, you know, barriers against movement of people, it's entirely plausible that the growth rates could have been even higher and that the kind of spatial distribution of South Africa would have been very different. And certainly the cities would have looked very differently. And we just don't know, we don't know what that history is. So it's very difficult to make a kind of normative claim to say, you know, this was good, or it was bad. What economic historians can pretty much do is to say, this is what happens. But we, so it's a kind of a positive approach, but not a normative approach. We cannot judge whether that was good or bad. And unfortunately, I think that's often what people want to hear is whether, you know, the value statement. And that's just very difficult because, because there's only, you know, one observation.

We only have one history. We don't have multiple, like a natural scientist where we have a laboratory and many different experiments. We don't have that. So in a nutshell, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned, but ultimately I would say that there were a lot of government involvement in the economy and typically when there are rules and regulations that prevent the market from, that inhibit kind of market processes, that usually doesn't foster the kind of growth that one would see if those processes are absent or if those rules and regulations are absent. Yeah, I think that's the best summary. - Good, all right. We are chatting to Johan Fari about his book, "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom." This is what's involved. We'll be back in just a bit and we're gonna wrap it up with Professor Johan Fari.

And we're back. It's what's involved. We're wrapping it up. My special guest is Professor Johan Fari talking about the book, "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom." It's well worth a read, particularly if you wanna get a bit of a grasp on the history of economics in our country and how the rest of the world impacts us. As we wrap up though, Johan, I'm going to ask you, you know, where do we stand now in terms of, you know, we hear about this thing called the second era of globalization. We hear about the fourth industrial revolution. Somebody was talking to me the other day about the fifth industrial revolution. Where are we now from your perspective?

- Yeah, I've stopped counting also the industrial revolution. So I'm also not entirely sure what people mean when they say the fourth or the fifth industrial revolution. I think, you know, for a, you know, I'm quite an optimist. So I should kind of qualify whatever I say by that. But I think what I'm sensing is that there's a movement away from what was known as the great moderation. So period, say two or three decades where technology didn't really have the impact on economic growth, right? So economic growth is just, you know, creating more value basically. So more production, higher incomes, these kinds of things. And that's really what we want. If we want to tackle the major issues like poverty and unemployment, then really growth is essential. And for a long time actually globally, we've seen technological innovation, you know, we've got the internet, we've got mobile phones, but those things have not always translated into the kind of classic economic growth that allows us to see kind of higher living standards. But, you know, my sense is that a lot of those things that have happened are now being translated into the kinds of technologies, you know, various kinds of things like fintech or biotech that would actually see as improved.

So the vaccine is a great example, right? So we've already had this technology for a decade and yet it's now really only the way we see its application and potentially not only to the coronavirus, but also to malaria and then HIV/AIDS, which would obviously have immense implications for the continent. So I think we're now entering a period where we hope to see again, the ingenuity that I've mentioned before, the innovation, really translate into high growth. Of course, you know, that requires certainly a government that allows those things to happen. So one of the lessons certainly from history is that whenever there's innovation, innovation disrupts and there's a status quo and those with power typically want to prevent that disruption or innovation because it threatens their position in society. And these are typically the elite, the political elite. And really what we want is a society where that cannot happen. And if it does happen, unfortunately, what we'll see is that the innovators will leave, right? And so we really, if we want to see growth, we want to see the kinds of economic processes that allow us to tackle the issues of our time, then we have to benefit from those kinds of innovations.

And the nice thing is, I think, is that there's many countries in Africa where we see a lot of that innovation now being applied in new and innovative areas that are applicable to the continent per se. So the way that we exchanging money on phones is very different to other places in the world. And so, again, I'm quite excited about those kinds of innovations actually having an effect on people's lives. - Absolutely, look, I'm an eternal optimist. I do firmly believe, and I was actually chatting to a gentleman the other day. I also wrote a book called "The ANC's Last Decade," a gentleman by the name of Ralph Matkega. And he was also talking about in terms of growth and what we need and government, et cetera, et cetera. But he's also very positive. And he believes that there is this upswell of people being more innovative, being more creative, being more disruptive, and putting their hands up and saying, "Hang on, this is not working." Before I let you go, though, Johan, can I ask you to do, and you did write a bit about it in the book, to do something that scholars shouldn't do. And that is ask you to look into your crystal ball and tell me what you see and what you would hope or what you see the future would be for South Africa and indeed Africa.

- David, I think partly the reason I wrote the book was that I realized that students are incredibly pessimistic of future, right? And there's a reason for that, a valid reason, I think, is that they've only experienced South Africa in the last decade. So they basically don't remember the World Cup, right? So that's still, I mean, they were eight years old. So for them, that's ancient history. So the South Africa that they know is the South Africa of the 2010s. And that's South Africa with negative economic growth. And just pessimism more generally. And so it's understandable that they don't see a place for themselves perhaps in the future, or they feel like if they wanna have a better living standard than their parents, then they have to move elsewhere. But there's obviously a generation, if we go back just a little bit earlier, which felt exactly the same, right? The generation of the early '90s, where you've had a period of negative economic growth, there's South Africa to some extent who were on the brink of a potential civil war. Education was terrible. There were these massive clemages in society. But within a 10 to 15 year period, we had a growth rate of 5%. We had a budget surplus.

We had brought down our government debt from very high levels to lower than 30% to GDP. We had bought an electric car in 2007. The dual was at the Paris Motor Show. And it was thought to be, this is South Africa's making this breakthrough. And it's of course just basically when Tesla was founded. And so if we just take that lesson and apply to today, then what I would say is that there's not,

it's not necessary that things will be better, but they can be better. And if we implement the right policies, if we, I guess also are in some sense take risks, that's exactly what happened back then is there were entrepreneurs who founded things amidst these terrible times, which actually ultimately rewarded them very handsomely. So we can be optimistic of the future. It's not that it's almost by implication gonna be a terrible decade ahead of us. I'm not saying that things will necessarily be better, but I think we can be optimistic of the future. - I would agree with you. And I think it's things like yourself, your outlook on our country and the African continent, the book, which is, as you said, now hopefully gonna gain a global audience. But also, the show, for example, I like to share stories of hope. I like to share stories of passion and I like to share African stories. And this is a great way of doing it. The book is "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom, "Lessons From 100,000 Years of Human History." Johan, available in all good bookstores, is it available online as well? - Yeah, it's published by Tafelberg, so it should be in every bookshop. And it's also on Kindle. - There we go, a lot of people looking forward to that.

So get hold of that. Johan, thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule and having a chat to us. I do appreciate it. We wish you everything of the best. And looking forward to some more writing. Are we gonna get some more writing? - Well, not in the immediate future.

The writing is one thing, but the process after the publication, the media engagement is actually quite time intensive. So for now, I think I'll take a hiatus for a year or two. - Get back to doing what you do best. Anyway, Johan, thank you so much. And all the best to you. - Thanks, David. - There we go, wrapping it up for this edition of "What's Involved" with my special guest there, Professor Johan Fari. The book, once again, "Our Long Walk to Economic Freedom, "Lessons From 100,000 Years of Human History." Go out, get it on your favorite platform, get it from a bookstore. It certainly is well worth a read. Wrapping it up and to each and every one of you, look after yourselves, take care, and thank you for listening.