Matt Brown — Scaling a business to $100 million in 36 months

Once more it is what's involved, so good to have you along with us and a special guest, a guest I always enjoy having on the show and who am I talking about? Well, he is the founder and CEO of Digital Kung Fu and of a couple of others. But there's a new one that's just launched. We're going to find out a little bit about that. But let's first say welcome back to you, Matt Brown. Thanks, David. Great to have, great to be back on the show, really. Yeah, man. It's always awesome chatting to you. And I figured out there was a lot I wanted to chat to you about and now full disclosure, we've just come off another podcast and I'm noticed and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but since we last spoke, there's somewhat of a quieter, more reserved Matt Brown this time around. Is that a correct assumption? I would say it is. Depends on what day you catch me on, if I'm driving, I'm obviously, I'm a bit of a tyrant, quite, you know, I have to be, I think leadership comes at a price and great leadership comes at an even higher price. So it really depends on context at the moment, context is I'm having a chat, you know, so yeah, I'm more chilled, more kind of, I suppose the adjectives are used are a hundred percent correct, but most definitely when I'm in the business, not talking about it, very different Matt Brown.

So yeah, I'm wearing a different hat today. And dare we say a more experienced Matt Brown since we last spoke, because man alive, when we last spoke and the last time we spoke was when you just launched your book, your inner game, which by the way, fantastic. It must still be selling well. I think definitely during the pandemic, that was one of my go tos because yeah, did I hit a wall of note and needed something to get me through and change directions and all of those things. But tell me a little bit about about Matt Brown. I mean, you know, you are the founder and CEO of Digital Kung Fu. You've just just launched another company as well. Now, to my mind, it's like, are you like a sucker for punishment? Why on earth would you do something like that? So tell me, give me the story. Why go Digital Kung Fu and now Black Swan Technologies, I believe. Yeah. So we are, we see, I think one of the, one of the benefits of special, of specialism or really focusing on one type of customers that you start to see different problems that you can solve as a team and, and as a company. And, you know, the reason why we launching, well, let me go back a step. The reason why we founded Black Swan Technology Holdings was purely to have different companies within a group structure that is designed specifically to solve specific problems.

I don't believe that you can do it all within one brand. While you can, I think, you know, strategically, it doesn't make the best sense to put everything into one brand. I think, especially when your customer starts to change even a little, you know, and it can be at a product level, not exact, not even at a company level. For instance, you know, within one company, you might have a software customer, but in the same business, you have a hardware customer. So if one's trying to move software and the other one's trying to move hardware, can you really fulfill it all within one stable? And unfortunately, we made the decision that, you know, it wasn't the best strategic sense to do that. So we've now founded, there's probably five companies within the group. And the idea being is that we are working towards what we call a 2024 vision. So it's a 36 month roadmap where we are looking to become a $100 million valuation company in that period of time. We want to get there and we want to get there quick. And the best way to do that is by solving more and more problems in the value chain and in that same process, helping to drive the valuation needle in the right direction through, you know, unlocking the right types of direct common revenue.

For instance, subscription revenue versus project fees. And obviously subscription revenue, you get much higher multiples valuation-wise. So we're not scared of the number, $100 million with, that's actually quite a small number, you know, compared to where some companies do go. And yeah, it's an exciting journey. It's fraught with problems, lots of failure, and you'd be learning as we grow. Now, this is the part I found fascinating, Matt, is having to, gotten to know you a little bit and knowing how purpose-driven you are. This whole idea, and you mentioned their failure as well, you and I discussed briefly, and I didn't remember if it was on air or off air, but we discussed this whole imposter syndrome, how are you meeting that? Because I know you, like a lot of entrepreneurs, struggle with that phenomenon. Yeah, it's something we all struggle with, especially when you start to reach a measure of success, which is where we are now as a team. You know, Digital Kung Fu grew by over 200% during COVID and in a recession. And we now are sitting at 55 odd people and that's a measure of success. I mean, in many, you know, obviously comparison is the thief of joy, but I recognize that COVID put a lot of businesses out of business and we were the ones, one of the ones that benefited.

So when you do reach a level of success, you start to question whether you're all worthy of that success or whether you just got lucky. It's a weird thing, it's like we're our own worst enemies or our own worst imposters, and I do write about it in my book, Imposter Syndrome. And it's something that, you know, it doesn't go away. It's the same as, you know, having inner fear or doubt about whether or not you have the capabilities of solving a certain size of problem or whether you can consistently solve that problem over time. So for instance, if the challenge is to build a hundred million dollar valuation company, do I back myself or do I back the problem? Where's the credit, you know, where's the credit line entering the journal? And Imposter Syndrome is a very real thing. It's a very real thing. Uh, when you start out, even when you start a podcast, as you'll know, and obviously congratulations on, you know, pushing that needle, you turn in 60 episodes is a fantastic achievement. So well done to you. Um, but you know, regardless of what you are trying to create and manifest for yourself, it comes with these in a game challenges. And obviously Imposter Syndrome is one of those things.

So for me, it's something that doesn't really go away. I think I've become more aware earlier on when the narrative inside my head is one of imposter. So I know what he looks like, you know, I call it my inner bitch. So it's when I start to look at a problem and feel that, okay, no, that, that problem is almost insurmountable, you know, and, uh, we spoke about it on the previous show, but I say a check again, cause I do feel it's relevant is that you, you know, you shouldn't give the problem more street credit than you give yourself. And I think that's just so important and imposter syndrome, it's fleeting. You know, it's only, it gets bigger if you feed it. Um, so it's just very important that, um, you know, you recognize that early on in your process and execute accordingly. Yeah. One of those, it reminds me of one of those old sayings is do not feed the fears. Matt, there's been so much that's happened and you mentioned that you had this growth during the period of, of COVID. And I know a lot of people didn't, what do you think the difference was between why digital kung fu managed growth and so many other people didn't. I think it was just by virtue of the space we were in, you know, we chose that space deliberately knowing that business, uh, the environment around all businesses is accelerating faster and faster all the time.

Okay. That makes, uh, make some sense there. Sorry. Just give me one sec home life.

Um, yeah, it's so awesome that there is still reality behind the Matt Brown persona. I love it. Yeah, it's cool. No, it's I have, I bring my kids on to, uh, calls now, uh, it's like, um, but I think there's even, I suppose there's irony in that, right? Because the business environment is becoming more uncertain and we've been forced into this new paradigm. I mean, I could never imagine, you know, a year ago, uh, you know, where my kids would be running around the office and there would be standing on the tables or sitting on my lap while I was conducting a business meeting. And now, you know, I'm on the call to like a Microsoft, you know, a mere executive with my, you know, three-year-old on my lap. So we're in these new, this new paradigm, right? But I guess to answer your question specifically, the reason why I suppose we were more successful is just by virtue of choosing the right industry. We just got lucky. Uh, there's no guarantees in, in business at all. I mean, the only certainty is uncertainty. Um, and it seems to me that we are living through times that are becoming more and more uncertain. So I'm very empathetic to, you know, companies who didn't make it. And, you know, we had some, uh, incredible, I would say brands that were part of the fabric of South Africa, Kalula, you know, went bankrupt.

I mean, that's crazy to think about that. And yet it happened. Um, so I think we just got lucky. That's all it was. Wonderful stuff. Well, I think there's a bit more than luck to do with that, Matt. Uh, this is what's involved. My special guest is, uh, Matt Brown, founder and CEO of Digital Kung Fu and Black Swan Technologies. Uh, we'll be back with Matt in just a bit and we're back. What's involved that is my guest tonight is Matt Brown. So Matt, just before the break, you're saying that, that, that you got lucky. And I mean, you know, that's, it, it reminds me of the quote by, by Gary player when somebody said he was lucky. And he said, he found that the more he practiced, the luckier he got. Did you see an event coming? Because I know you, you pretty much try and keep your finger on the pulse of things. Was this something that you planned as a scenario? I think when we chose technology, the technology sector specifically as our customer four years ago, it was based on, it was actually a different context. I mean, we didn't think about pandemics back then, but the, the actual context for choosing that industry was, uh, purely for, you know, what, what industry would survive another financial collapse of the financial system and, or which one would be most resilient to that environment.

Now was the only reason why we chose the technology sector, quite frankly. And you, I do agree with Gary player that, you know, the more you practice, you know, the luckier you do get. Um, and so fortunately for us, we also had the right solutions in place at the right time. So even when COVID hit the first time in the B2B space, events were a thing. And then obviously with COVID that was no longer a thing. And so many technology customers of ours needed to do virtual events. And that's what we built. We built a webinar sort of platform or virtual conferencing solution. And we deployed that successfully. Um, so, uh, you know, you do need to obviously not just rely on the markets being, you know, landing in your favor. You do need to adapt to those markets and make the right decisions at the right time. Yeah, absolutely. Now, when we talk about, about, uh, your business and you've launched another one, you mentioned earlier on that there's now sort of five units within the greater group. How has this affected Matt Brown, because when we first spoke, you know, we, we talked about this concept of, of, of balance and, you know, I dunno, in, in terms of entrepreneurs, I don't know if there is such a thing as a work-life balance.

How are you managing that these days? I think I've got more time than I ever have before, funnily enough. I think I have to consume more data every day. Uh, I have to make more decisions every day and I have to be able to flip from one business context into another and into another and into another all in the same day. And so that means I have to simulate a lot of, uh, data. Um, but then the question becomes, well, how can you have more time if that's the reality? And so one of the things that I've drilling into my team at the moment is the following, which is you never rise to the level of your goals. You always fall to the level of your systems. And as a team, like if it's one thing that I did this year was just develop systems, it would be a successful year without doubts, because I think even, you know, I mentioned the a hundred million dollar number. It's like, well, how do you get there? Well, it's not just about visualizing the thing and creating products and so on and so forth. You have to have systems that can scale. So we building, we're building, building, building, building, building. We we've, we've never built more than we are building right now. And so the, and that is because it's, it's a necessity.

Uh, we also failing. I mean, we built a whole hardware marketplace and, um, you know, we killed that yesterday because there's literally no inventory to move and the margins were really small in that particular business and it had to scale. So it can't scale, can't make money and it's got to go. There's no point. Um, you know, falling in love with the solution when you actually need to fall in love with the problem. So we killed that business and literally 24 hours later, we've got a new company called super data ninja, which is more aligned to that vision and more aligned to what we actually do as a group, which is, um, you know, essentially data intelligence, human capital and platform technology. So those three things together, you know, start to make more sense in this new context, but, you know, as a CEO, I had to make the decision to kill it. And it's all because I, you know, I do believe you have to fall in love with the problem over and over and over again. It's so easy to fall in love with the business, but it's like, well, if it's not making money, kill it, you know, is it really something that's worth like all the meetings, all the people, all the time, all the content, all the thinking, you know, is it really going to pay off?

Is it really going to pay off? And are you prepared to kill it in order to be successful? Are you prepared to sacrifice that, that thing that you maybe love in order to really be successful? Um, and so this is the quintessential challenge of entrepreneurship, right? Is to recognize when you should walk away from something, when you need to double down on something and are you going to be okay with that? I mean, if you're going to be, you know, in 10 years time from now, thinking about today, uh, you know, are you going to regret making that decision or are you not going to regret it? And, uh, you know, you're always going to pay a check to regret at some point, but I think as leaders now in this sort of posts, opening up post pandemic business environment, you know, innovation is, is, is not something that we want to do anymore, something that you need to do. And fortunately, uh, as a group for ourselves, we're okay with that. You know, we're okay with things not working and, uh, and, you know, failure is a necessity, you know, it's not a nice to have. It's not something you choose. It's like, you must, you must fail. Yeah. I think we're getting better at it. I think as a leader, it's also something I'm still learning about, but it's remarkable to compare even a year ago, David, to, you know, last time I was on the show to where we are now, it's just, it's truly remarkable to see what has happened and what we have done as a team to survive it and not only survive it to become, you know, to, to have an exponential growth story.

This is the thing that, that I find so fascinating and just to take a step back, my mentor always used to say to me, there is no failure. There's only feedback. And as soon as you can wrap your head around that, it'll be a lot better for you, because I think part of being an entrepreneur is, is you do have, um, an ego and particularly in my, the business, I mean, ego is almost a prerequisite. So, uh, you tend to take things quite personally when failure happens, but that wasn't a side, because what I really wanted to get onto is you're not the first person that I've spoken to in the entrepreneurial space who seems incredibly positive about the impacts that have, that, that COVID, COVID has had where a lot of times we focus on the negative, but also focusing on growth. A couple of people now said, this is the time 2021 is the time to start something, to grow something, to build something. Are you of that opinion? Cause I assume you must be. Yeah. And I've read a number of, um, uh, things that have, uh, well, just pure stats, like in the U S more companies were founded during COVID than in the previous three years combined. So it just goes to show that I don't obviously largely it's job displacement and this kind of stuff.

Um, but I would say, you know, in a recession now in a pandemic is the best time to start a business. It's not the worst time. Uh, and you know, the reason being is that if you can make it through an environment like the one we have, like you built something, you know, and you've weathered that. So in our case, we want to sell the group and that narrative is powerful. Uh, and it's powerful for you internally to go, Hey, I survived COVID. You know, we survived a recession. Um, and whatever that is for you in your own context, to be able to stand back and look and go and reflect on that journey and go, sure, how many people can say that they did that? And so I do believe it's the best time to start a business. Um, because, you know, that thing I found is that a lot of people keep talking about it. Well, one day I'm going to start one. You know, when, when the market changes, I'm going to start a business. When, when COVID's over, then I'm going to, you know, start a, start a business. Uh, when I get my vaccine, I'm going to start a business. And when I get my bonus, I'm going to start a business. It's never the right time. You just have to do it. And, you know, as I said, just like yesterday, we founded another company.

I don't, I don't care about the business environment because actually the market doesn't care. It's the thing people so attached to the market, the market, the market is it's negative, it's recession, it's COVID. It's like, so what, so what the market will always pay for what it values. So as long as you create value and you understand how to do that, you will make, and you learn how to make money. And that's the thing when she understand how to create an economy for yourself, not a paycheck, an economy, uh, then you, you have, have such a high probability of success, um, and people underestimate that they're focused too much on the narrative that's out there and the narrative that they're not good enough or the narrative about timing or the narrative about competition, um, uh, you know, whatever that is, is to, there's so much, yes, it's there, but it doesn't mean you should focus, focus on it because if you focus too much on that, you will assign the wrong meaning to that focus and therefore by extension, you will take the wrong action, or maybe you won't take enough action. Probably better set. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. It's also on a sort of slightly more metaphysical in a, in a slightly more metaphysical sense, there's the, the theory that, uh, energy flows where attention goes.

So, uh, something to think about as well. We are chatting to a Matt Brown, not only the founders here of, uh, digital kung fu as well as black swan technologies, but also, uh, the star of the Matt Brown show, I want to talk a bit about podcasting when we come back. I think it's something very close to, to our hearts as well. This is what's involved. We'll be back in just a bit and we're back what's involved. That is my special guest, Matt Brown. So Matt, talk to me a little bit because I actually, I see you often on social media that you're posting and you've recorded new episodes, et cetera, et cetera. I love following what you do. I still want to know how you get to speak to some of the people you managed to get to speak to because, you know, call it professional curiosity. But have you found podcasting has helped you in the business? Because I know you did podcasting. I mean, podcasting for you was never, there wasn't one of your main focuses, was it? Um, no, I mean, I tried to build a media company, uh, doing only podcasting and in Africa, unfortunately, you know, we didn't have the ecosystem. I would say maybe not the right word, but it's certainly, you couldn't scale it. You could make a little bit of money, but I wasn't about making a little bit of money.

You know, um, I wasn't okay with just surviving and winning some of the time. I want to win all the time and I'm a very hyper competitive personality. So the podcast from a commercial perspective was a failure. It's actually why our legal entity is still called Matt Brown media because of that was the podcast, um, business that we're trying to build, even though now we're trading a digital Kung Fu and black swine and, you know, super data ninja and all these other things. But certainly from a commercial perspective, it was very difficult. And I think maybe things have changed. I mean, we did research at the time to substantiate the addressable markets and all this kind of stuff, but you, again, you know, to get a brand like Investec to, even though they're doing their own podcasts to drop one and a half million rand on one audio only medium is a bit, a bit remiss when you can do a TV ad and digital and programmatic media buying all kinds of stuff. So it was a very difficult thing to sell. If you were in sitting in America as an example, NPR have done it. There's a very large consumer markets and many, many other brands out there that would be prepared to take the audio bet, but in South Africa, not, not the case then, but certainly from a personal perspective, the guests that I've had on the show, I mean, I didn't even know what, how many episodes I don't know, 300 and something, um, but the guests that we've had on the show, I always learn, uh, a lot, and I keep saying like the more I podcast, the richer I get.

Not rich in the sense of dollars, but richer in the sense of knowledge and perspective, um, and speaking of perspective, I had, um, uh, a neuroscientist on the show called Bo Lotto. And he wrote this, uh, book called deviate the science of seeing differently. And we, and we actually spoke about perspective and our perspective in business, especially when you're suffering is very important. It's critical. And we, I mean, the guy is a very difficult person to interview because he's literally a genius. And so we spoke at length about perspectives. How would you hold a conversation about perspective for an hour within, you know, with the genius neuroscientists sitting in London. Um, and it's, it's challenging and because it's challenging, it changes me. And I believe that whatever doesn't challenge you doesn't change you. So, and I've had, I've just been very fortunate. I've got a great team behind me. And I think, you know, I think the, the talent pool in South Africa is too small for a podcast that really wants to be a sustainable for, you know, 10 plus years, you have to go, uh, you know, look internationally spread away. I would suggest, um, and yeah, I think I've learned so much. I mean, I keep recounting things on my show that I don't even know where they came from, sayings, quotes, um, insights, lessons, small things that will bubble up into my consciousness when I'm sitting in a pressurized meeting as an example, uh, something somebody said to me in passing, you know, on episode 210, you know, and I can't remember who it is, but I remember why it's relevant.

So, um, I wrote, uh, so not, I wrote, I had the author on my show. He wrote crossing the chasm, Jeffrey Moore, and that was a funny thing. Cause I was so I was in back to back meetings and I was a podcast. I was like, damn, I've got to do a podcast. So I opened up my broadcast media platform and log on and the whole thing. And there's this old gentleman sitting there. I still don't click who it is. And I'm like, okay, cool. So what are we talking about today? And he's like, well, we're going to talk about my book, crossing the chasm. Now I read crossing the chasm like 10 years ago, it's been translated into God knows how many languages, the guys literally a business rock star. And I was like, holy shit, it's Jeffrey Moore. I'm talking about, I'm going to talk about this book with you. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Cause I'm we're, we're, we're actually launching a technology product ourselves and all ideas around how you get market adoption of a digital product that can scale. So I interviewed Jeffrey as if he was giving me advice and was like, listen, so I have this thing, I'm thinking this, what do you think? And he's like, no, but you must do this and blah, blah, blah. So it becomes free coaching, if you like, from like a world's leading experts.

So I think as a podcast host, you tend to focus on, well, no, you know, I haven't got a hundred million downloads here, it's like, so what, who cares? The point is, is like focus on how you are growing, how you are learning and changing, how are you getting richer? Not in the commercial scenes, but how are you making a bet on your future? How are you? I mean, for me, the other thing, there was another chapter on my show. In fact, the last guy I had on my show was, um, let me get his name here. Mark Shafer, he founded, um, the content marketing institutes. So, I mean, that, I mean, 20 years ago when the, when the internet had sex and had social media platforms, like Facebook, people were like, how do we do social media marketing? And he, that brand was there then. And we spoke about, um, you know, um, sorry, his name's not Mark Shafer, it's Joe Peluzzi, but we spoke about content and its relevance in the future and podcasting is probably the most valuable channel that you can build after a website, legitimately, uh, because it's, it's something that you own. No one can ever compete with you on your podcast. So it's not about the downloads. As long as you have a loyal audience, which is what I would say is more valuable, uh, than having, you know, a thousand or a hundred thousand people come in and leave, uh, but if you have a thousand true fans, even it's enough.

Um, and to, to build longevity on, you know, so again, focusing on the right things, having, making sure that you're doing it for the right reasons and keep doing it, just keep doing it. But that, that's the amazing thing. And you've actually given away, um, one of my secrets as well, because initially the idea was, you know, being in, being on radio and being in the media is I want to do this and I was looking at some of the guys, um, from overseas entrepreneur on fire, those kinds of things. Um, and all of the millions and millions of downloads. And I was like, yes, yes. My ego was saying, I want to do that. And subsequently, I mean, it hasn't happened because like with most things in life, they don't tell you about the downside of it, uh, and, and the background and the work that has to go into getting those things out there. But the amount of learning I now do, um, the radio show and my, my podcast literally for love, because I'm not doing it for money, but the amount of learning that I gained from it. And I think the value I add is that my listeners also get value in having somebody like a Matt Brown chatting to myself and saying, Hey, listen, you can do this and taking different perspectives.

So I'm glad you're still a fan. No, no plans on quitting your podcast yet. I have many designs on quitting the podcast. I just never, I think I've had many moments where I'm like, is it really worth it? You know, it happens. Uh, if you do anything for long enough, it's like, if you really want to, you know, achieve anything of noteworthy importance, or if you want to build something of some kind of legacy, uh, then, you know, you're going to have moments where you want it, your question, why are you doing it and should you quit? Is it, is it really worth the efforts? Um, and you know, I've been there, I've been there, as I said, it doesn't. Every year I'm like, I want to quit. I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? And then something will happen. I'll have one conversation and then I'll be like, damn, that's the reason why. That's why I do it. Yep. I know exactly what you're talking about. It is what's involved. My special guest is Matt Brown, founder and CEO of Digital Kung Fu. He says, putting his false teeth back in, uh, and Black Swan Technology is also the presenter of the Matt Brown show. We'll be back, wrapping it up with Matt in just a bit. And we're back. What's involved?

Matt Brown is my guest. Man, I can't believe our time flies. I love chatting to Matt Brown, Matt. Okay. So, so let's get into a couple of questions to wrap this up. Your book, your first book you wrote is your inner game. I trust it's still selling well and it's still available. It's a fantastic read. Are you still actively promoting that? It's free on my website, uh, mattbrownshow.com. It's free on Kindle and Amazon. And then we actually, uh, at the beginning of this year, we released the, uh, the audio book on the podcast, on my show. Um, so it's, uh, I would say I wouldn't actively promoting it, but certainly trying to get it in front of as many, you know, uh, relevant people as possible. I think that's absolutely fantastic. I mean, the fact that it's, that's now free as well is, is awesome. It is a must read book. Go out and get it. Um, once you finished listening to my radio show, my podcasts, feel free to follow Matt Brown as well. Uh, we can do highly recommended Matt in terms of, of, of Matt Brown, the man. We, we tune next for you. Let's talk about firstly, a book, another book. Is there one in the making? Yep. It's called a slingshot growth. Um, can confirm a release date just yet.

Um, but, uh, you know, it's interesting, the concept of scale and growth. It's something that as a team, we are trying to reconcile and resolve for ourselves. And I think there's a lot of, um, you know, Silicon Valley narrative out there that, that paints a picture of, you know, if you, if you don't build the next Airbnb, you're a failure. Um, or that, at that blitz scale is the only way to really build a business. And I can tell you now, it's just not true. Um, you know, you have to know why you want that type of scale. And is that really for you? Because, you know, to have a hundred million dollar company is a lot of pain. It can be, it's for some, but it's not for everybody. So I think one of the things is, you know, in the context of slingshot growth, what does that really mean? And I suppose, uh, you know, the premise really is around, well, you know, there's the Silicon Valley narrative that's just not necessarily true for all of us. So if we do aspire to build things of value and we want to do it quickly, is there an alternative way to do it? And I guess also how, you know, how do you quantify value? You know, you might, as you say, I want to do the hundred million dollar business, or you might be quite happy with one or two employees, five employees.

I think it all depends on what success, what you feel success is. Uh, I don't know if you agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think you should look to answer that question sooner rather than later. I understand that in the first year, it's about survival. But once you pass that year, you're still surviving. I mean, we're in year four and we're still on this survival train. You know, I don't think you ever really get off there, but the thing that does change is the goalposts. So where, what are you trying to, uh, where are you trying to drive that train? Uh, and I think without knowing where you're going, you know, it's not something that you should do when you're at 50 people, but something that you should do when you're just you, you know, what is success actually for me here? Uh, and I think we sometimes focus on the wrong things about surviving, you know, making sure we can put a food on the table sort of thing when you start out, uh, when really at the end of the day, it's about recognizing that the goal is everything, uh, and when you are clear around that, you can start to attract the right people into your business, uh, who can see that goal and go, damn, I want a part of that.

You know, uh, that excites me. Uh, this is a journey that I want to be on because without it, you, you know, you, you, you're not going to be as deliberate with your actions and you will start to find, yeah. It's one of the things that I always like to say is, is, you know, if you, if you have a big enough, why you'll figure out the how, yes, there you go. Yeah. And the harder the problem, the harder the problem, the bit, the more you'll attract the right people, cause they want the hard stuff, you know?

Yeah. Now, normally at this time of, of, of the interview, I would go, what's next for Matt Brown, but she kind of already told me what's next is a hundred million dollar business in 36 months, uh, strangely enough. If I believe anybody can do it, I believe you and your team could do it. But in terms of Matt Brown personally, because you did say something about you wanting to build this business and ultimately sell it on. So what is the big vision for Matt Brown? Uh, I'm moving to America at some point this year. So I got the, uh, I got a green card like almost a year and a half ago now. And we've just, with COVID, everything's being kind of delayed. So I think probably the big shift will be moving to the U S and it's, and it's very matched around moving towards opportunity, not running away from, you know, any systemic problems here in South Africa, I'd be more than happy to, to stay here and continue being successful here. And that's very much the reality. So I think now, you know, with, with being in a post pandemic environment, being anywhere in the world is fine. You don't need a head office. You don't need a HQ, you know, it's everybody's working from home. And I've got, uh, got my team work all around the country.

Uh, and so the whole paradigm has changed. And with the pandemic, you never go back to the way things were. Um, and so now we're in this new paradigm. So for me, it's like, well, you know, to be sitting in the U S, to be able to have a coffee or to have a virtual coffee with somebody in America. Uh, you know, the ability to execute across borders is, is now more prevalent than ever before. So I think that's probably the big, the big news, but I think most importantly, just staying true to my people. So up in my wall here, I've got a picture of our end of year function. It's just to remind me that, you know, the business, uh, is, is not about me. It's about them. Um, and so being cognizance of, of that fact. So yeah, staying true to myself, essentially. Wonderful stuff and some sound advice there as well. Matt Brown. Thank you so much for taking the time out and having a chat to us. I know we're going to keep in touch. It's just the nature of things. Uh, and I look forward to chatting to you when your new book comes out. Awesome, David building. There we go. That was my special guest, Matt Brown, CEO of digital Kung Fu and Black Swan Technologies, also, uh, the host and presenter of the Matt Brown show.

Go check it out, mattbrownshow.com. You can get it there until next time to each and every one of you, take care. Look after yourselves and thank you for listening.