Ryan Johnson — Marine Scientist, Documentary Film Maker, Shark Researcher, Shark vs Whale

It is what's in and I did promise you a special guest and I'm gonna go on a limb here go out on a limb here And I'm gonna say a special guest who I've been really looking forward to chatting to Because one of the main reasons is I'm going to say to him and I want to be able to ask him in person If he's nuts and that special guest is none other than Ryan Johnson. Hello, Ryan. Hey there David. Yeah Nuts, that's a nice way to describe me

Why why would I say this well Ryan is a research coordinator And the National Geographic spokesperson at the blue wilderness research unit What we're talking about is National Geographic. It's not your wild. I believe Have it's their shark fest month and Ryan's been involved in something called shock versus whale And we're going to talk about that and then you'll understand why maybe I say in my opinion Ryan is nuts, but let's get back to you Ryan. Tell me a little bit about about Ryan Where did you grow up and how did you get into into this particular line of work? Um, yeah, it's been a it's been a long journey. Um, you can tell from my accent. I'm originally from New Zealand I've been here now over 20 years And I grew up like, you know, most kids in New Zealand swimming on the beach You you you were surrounded by the stories of the dolphins being the good guys and the sharks being the bad guys and and the shark And the beach I actually swam at as a kid was called shark alley. Um, I didn't see any sharks there but you know sharks are always part part of my mind and and growing up in New Zealand animals and nature and wildlife is is a big part of growing up and Very early on I knew I wanted a career in that working working with animals wildlife and nature Then I yeah, I basically finished up my undergraduate in New Zealand I was looking around wondering what to do in my postgraduate research and I Kept on getting drawn to Africa and and I had a professor in my department who who was working with the University of Pretoria and I went spoke to him and asked her to put in touch put me in touch with the University of Pretoria and We're way back in 1998 She put me in touch with one of the professors then I started talking to him and he invited me over to to do my postgraduate research and I came packed my bags came to Africa and South Africa and and If I look at a moment when it kicked off it and it was in 1998 with the shark research it was I was walking down the corridor and I saw this advertisement about The cage diving industry the white shark cage diving industry and essentially the government was asking for research to be done to investigate whether it was impacting on the on the amount of attacks on surface and and humans and I Was fascinated by that and I applied for the position I got positioned to to conduct this research for my master's degree and They sent me off of this little island Dire Island for a year to just study whether the white shark cage Diamond industry was impacting on on on the sharks and humans and yeah that really kicked it off I mean you seem to have an absolute and I only can I'm highly famous references is I've been lucky enough to see That particular episode which is called shock versus wealth That's going to be screened in South Africa on national net your wild next Friday. I think it's the 17th. It's going to be screened but I got a sneak preview and that's why I think you're absolutely nuts because You're dealing with great white sharks and yet you seem incredibly passionate about these animals I don't know, you know, I'm a huge animal lover I mean and in my time I've qualified as a field guide and I've been out in the bush and I can lead people on walks in big five country But there's something about a great white shark and it's a primal thing that terrifies me. Why are you different?

You know, the reason I'm different is because now they're working them with them for 15 years I've been in

Positions where if these sharks and the great whites were what we see on in Jaws, etc where they they would have killed me very easily would have attacked me and so many times I've got myself in bad positions or positions where I'm vulnerable and

They haven't done anything I think at the moment it changed was I was With a man called Andre Hartman who in the shark world is a legend for initially doing the freediving With the great white sharks and I begged him Take me with you. Take me with you for a couple months and he finally finally let me come with him and

He he was actually a little bit hungover So he said yeah, just jump in the water with one Ryan and I'm like, come on you get on Andre I'm not he's like, no, just get in and I remember sitting in the back of the boat with all my wet suit and gear on and Everything was going through my head the Jaws music all that stuff is going through my head and I put my feet in the water This great white swam pass. I took my feet back out of the water totally subconsciously and this happened about five or six times and then I jumped finally jumped into the water and This great white shark just swam past me and I was expecting this attack I was expecting, you know, this is over for me and it ignored me They just swam past looked at me and I went huh and then it circled around the boat and came back and swam past again and and again, it ignored me and I spent 30 40 minutes in the water with that shot circling me and

Never did I feel a moment of aggression towards me And I think that was a moment where I started seeing them very differently, you know I always respect that they're these you know, these apex predators. They're really great at what they do Which is hunting seals hunting fish hunting whales we know now But you know if they know what we are if we behave right and we're respectful and cautious They don't represent a massive danger to us. So when once you get past that then you can start really appreciating Them as a really fine animal

I kind of agree. But you know when I have a look and I've spent some time at the coast not a lot but you know the things like the other kinds of sharks the the Tigers the The black tips the bull sharks, for example those you can look at and go listen apex predator It works on on instinct. It is a predator You know beer beer. We I think for me what what makes me feel more afraid of a great white is that? I don't know if it's something that I just pick up, but there's an intelligence there These are not just automated killing machines and it's particularly clear. I think in the in the great white

You're you're a hundred percent And I'm still learning about this as well. I think during this documentary I learned so much after seeing Helen attack this whale because Even me, you know most the predatory activity that I see is being these high speed Highly aggressive highly dynamic attacks of the sharks coming from deep reaching out hitting the seals and you think wow And you know you almost start thinking it's a little bit one-dimensional the shot, but when you saw our Helen approach this whale which was you know over twice as long and probably ten times the weight of her and How she adapted her behavior and she she approached it cautiously strategically incredible patients You realize that they are intelligent they know how to adapt their behavior to you know succeed on this in the waters and There's a lot more going on in their brains and in them as sharks then, you know that high-speed Predator ambush predator that we sort of see breaching out of the water It's absolutely fantastic. I want to talk a little bit more about about the Documentary about the sharks vs. Wells that you're with because the cinematography is Unbelievable and I want to find out more about that And also some of the things where if you'd asked me in a situation particularly the one situation which we're going to discuss To get into the water. I would have answered with two words and one of them would have been off So let's find out why Ryan does what he does when we come back It is what's involved when we come back my special guest Ryan Johnson. We're talking all about the documentary. That's going to be airing on that year wild This coming Friday. I believe it's the 17th That you're able to watch it. It's absolutely Unbelievable more from Ryan when we come back and we're back. It is what's involved. My special guest is Ryan Johnson We're talking about shark versus whale. So before we get into that, obviously Ryan you are what your studies were and everything is in marine biology. Am I correct?

yeah, I started in my postgraduate actually at University of Pretoria, which is you know far away from the ocean and You know and basically from then on I switched to marine stuff switched to great white sharks and it's been yeah It's been 15 years on more now 18 years working primarily Just on sharks. I love them Fantastic now, how did you get involved with the guards from a National Geographic?

Well, I Collected this footage, you know, I was very fortunate, you know I got the drone up over what I initially thought was going to be filming a Carcass of a whale and I was hoping some great white would come along and start feeding on it but as soon as I got the drone above the way, I realized this whale was alive it was weakened but it was alive and then You know the big shark Helen for me - great white turned up and went through this whole process of hunting and ultimately drowning This whale and I was sitting there with 50 minutes of incredible footage As well as a heck of a lot of questions, you know my questions were is this something happened that happens often do sharks hunt whales often we just don't see it or did Helen intrinsically or instinctively know how to go about this hunt so I had all these questions and I didn't have the money to do much research or to really investigate this because it's a big project and So I approached Earth touch who's a southern production company about turning this footage in documentary and they went and approached National Geographic and National Geographic just you know fell in love with ideas said yes, but we wanted you to get to the bottom of this so we'll stick a bunch of money so that we can send you on and basically an expedition for a year to to study and try to get to the bottom of this as well as Make the documentary. So that's really how we got involved with National Geographic Who essentially sponsored the documentary and all the research that went afterwards trying to get to the bottom of this this thing we saw Now this this all happened a couple of years ago. I mean we this just didn't happen recently No, the the actual sighting you're right was over two years ago now So really it was you know from that initial sighting It was then going forward and a getting getting the funding to go and research this more But also then to you know, basically spend a year because you know, there's a very critical time Where this type of event can happen and it's during the annual migration of the humpbacks from Antarctica up passing through areas like Mossle Bay where there's a lot of great whites through the sardine run up into Mozambique and then that Returned migration back down. So we really had to get on the spots where there was a Potential conflict or a potential place where the sharks and the whales would come together And you know nature nature works on its own Timeline, so we basically have to wait for nature to give us that chance Yeah, I gotta tell you I mean and and this is where I was I was leading up to in terms of this question With the with National Geographic behind you when we are when when we see the documentary and and the filming and It's not for the faint of heart by any stretch of the imagination. Okay, this is this is real stuff that happens in the wild how many people are involved in that because I just think of certain of the scenes and I've seen it in a couple of the scenes you go in there with Almost like a heavy heavy-duty selfie stick with a camera on the end of it. How many other people are in the water with you?

Yes, my selfie stick is more sort of a defense than I am In a filming one know that the team was was about six of us And it's really nice working with earth tech, which is celebrating company because our whole production team except for me Will was South African? so we had a crazy underwater cameraman called Barry skinstead who who's you know, he's an inspiration because You know while I'm pulling on my first fin He's already jumped in the water and he's off filming and he'll stay in there for like four or five hours Well, you know you can last like half an hour So, you know, we had him underwater with me my wife Fiona as who's a well-known underwater photographer She was also under the water with us Taking the stills and and second camera then topside, you know, it's it's a small crew But it's really a couple of mates guys. I've worked with for many years and so when sure is a cameraman and then we got We've got sound gosh. I forgot his name now. He's gonna kick me kick me so that So yeah, so it's about five of us then we'll have a skipper So five or six of us and we've become a really close team because you're living this whole event together and you know Whilst I'm on camera all the guys behind They're actually the guys are doing most of the work Um, and and and you become a family and then there's Daniel who just runs Daniel I have to mention and he runs everything he does all the data capture He makes sure all the cameras are clean and everything. So yeah, I said close little team there Because as I said, and I'm gonna mention this a good few times the cinematography is Absolutely phenomenal. You've got some shots. I think Well, obviously the whale one is is totally unique. I've never seen that but just some of them With those those those great watts when they breach that that an animal that size Can hit that hard and get that far out of the water is absolutely mind blowing Yeah, it is. Um, and I forgot to mention we had one more and he's a very quiet guy until he has a few beers and as we call him Boris the blade, he's actually the the wildlife cameraman and What he does is, you know, he'll sit there, you know, particularly that breaching and you don't see it He'll sit there for three hours. He won't say a word and he would just have these incredible cameras that earth touch has You know Targeted right at those decoys and we can be telling you know with those breaches We can be telling for three hours straight and maybe get one breach and he has to be spot on When that breach happens he has to be recording He has to have the camera framed he has to have them focus and this guy is just insane He'll just sit there and you'll forget about it. But you know when the breach happens It's gonna be sharp and stop and obviously earth touch Which is a production company have some incredible camera those those breaching Shots wish shot on a camera called the phantom which shoots the phantom flex which shoots up to 1,000 frames a second If the lights put so when you're shooting at that frame rate, you can slow that footage down massively certain and then you know as a viewer you can really See just how incredible those breaches are because when you're watching it with your eye It's over in a heartbeat. It's like boom-boom and it's gone But you really can't contemplate what just happened. But once you see it on that super slow-mo camera, it's something special

Let's talk about that when we talk because one of the one of the instances whilst you were doing this research is You were tearing these decoys out of a large seal and a baby seal That's where we get to see some of those fantastic breaches but it looked to me and if I understand correctly that in terms of Which of those got struck the most it's generally the baby one that that the sharks went for Exactly. Um, that surprised me, you know when I set up this experiment, it's a really simple little experiment But it's quite elegant. I wanted to see whether these sharks Almost had a sense of their own mortality as predators I would they go for a small safe option that would not fight back would not injure them But gave them that only a little bit of reward would they go for that bigger option the big reward big success but the chance of them being injured by an adult seal striking back at them biting them or hitting their eye or something is is is a real threat to them even as predators and the fact that they consistently time and time again Shows that baby seal that really doesn't have a little big reward associated with that Told me that these sharks are conservative they are aware that they can be injured as Predators and if you know a great white shark loses his eye to a big seal or something Then it's life as a predator is essentially over so they are aware that They can be injured and they are at risk of losing their ability to hunt and that Was what made me?

Start thinking again about Helen taking on this whale that you know a big humpback whale can put out a massive amount of damage onto a potential predator, you know with those those pictorial fins all this tail slats can cause significant danger and

Why would Helen go about and start attacking this type of prey that's so much bigger than her so much more powerful than her and What I got to was the realization that this way I was weakened it had been entangled by ropes It had a lot of mortal skin on it showing that it wasn't healthy and that she must have been able to read the behavior or the visual the look of that whale and Determined that it was very unlikely to fight back significantly. Thus. She was safe to try to attack it and that type of communication back and forth between the prey and the predator is Was remarkable, but you know, you do have to remember that's what predators are designed to do They're designed to take out the week So they must know and be able to identify the weak vulnerable prey and I think that's what she did Wonderful stuff. We are chatting to Ryan Johnson about This whole shark fest that Natia Wilds got going. I'm coming up on the 17th is shark versus whale when we come back though There's this one bit and then I want to get on to the shark Helen But there is one bit where you guys are in the water and my heart stood still so when we come back I want to have a chat about that. It is what's involved. My special guest is Ryan Johnson. We're talking about Part of the shark fest the one documentary Episode is called shark versus well more when we come back

It is what's involved my special guest is Ryan Johnson we talking about the documentary shock versus whale one instance though Ryan you guys were in the water and You know you you kind of as if you're watching the the documentary you actually kind of know what's coming but when it happens Oh my giddy aunt and that is when you guys actually were in the water filming a great white And and a great white attacking a seal it it was beautifully horrific to watch How was it to be in there because you're you're you're you're sort of I saw your reaction afterwards when you got out of the water But I mean yeah, I've got to be honest if I was there in something like that happened I might have been the second person that people saw walking on water

You're right your description sort of horrifically fabulous or whatever it is correct we We we went up to Pledenburg Bay to to to look at how these sharks were hunting seals in This very sort of shallow environment with white sand where they can't camouflage themselves and part of that was obviously me and Barry hopping in the water to to to film the seals to film the behavior of pods etc and when this attack when the the shark Came it was It was surreal for me I'd been separated from Barry and I was actually working my way back to the boat and

Then this you know, the first thing I saw of it was really the the sort of half the seal sort of twitching And I was like, what's that? And then behind it the right white shark appeared Took the seal in its mouth and just started thrashing and this was happening like three or four meters away from me machine. I thought oh my goodness and You you're faced with decisions you make in that situation

You know and the first thing you know about freediving with gray whites is You don't show fear you don't panic and you don't try to get away from them did don't try to flee because you're immediately going to be communicating to the great white that you're also potential prey and And you could purchase interest by that So I knew I had to stand my ground If I wanted to get out of the situation But at the same time I was I was confronted with this new dilemma Which is I don't want to tell the shark that I'm Threatening it or pressure in it take that seal often Because you know, it's like when a dog's eating Food and you go up and try to take that food away. That's when you're going to get bitten So I didn't want to be too aggressive, but also I didn't want to be too defensive and run away So you sort of on this tightrope I felt I was on a tightrope balancing Which I wanted to make my sit my presence known make myself big but I didn't want to ever Get to a stage where I was threatening it to session extent that it thought I might be challenging it for the prey and then you know The shark just had this prayer in his mouth and it decided to come right up at me and you know Circle me probably a meter away from me You know, I wasn't I had my my my shark stick which I could prod it away with on and I had the GoPro I'm end of it so I think the footage that came out of that sort of shark circling me with the seal in its mouth thrashing around is is it's more about me just keeping something between myself and the shark and A GoPro being there filming rather than me doing any great sort of cinema cinema work But again, you know, I think I managed, you know, I didn't feel that shark been aggressive to me it carried on eating and ultimately it just swam off with this prey in the mouth and Ate it away and we got back on the boat But um, yeah, it was it was a lot of adrenaline going on and when I hopped out of the water I think all that adrenaline just sort of just flooded out of my body and I Got quite emotional Not only to see that but also to be able to You know get out and be safe Well, I mean let's be honest, you know, that is not our natural home I mean the ocean is not where we are naturally at home these days And you know what I find fascinating is is there have been incidences of great white shark attacks Some some of the research and some of the theory that has come back is that when they have attacked Surfers or whatever the case may be it's been a case of mistaken identity But we still the weakest I mean, you know when you talk about apex predators looking and culling the weakest from the herd We're right up there in the water as the weakest So, what do you think do you think they can distinguish between us and go? Okay, maybe maybe you know We could cause some damage and or do you think they see us as big seals? I don't know No, they definitely it's when we're not on their menu You even look at the attacks on on humans And each one of them is tragic and I don't want to trivialize any of them But the reality is 99% of those attacks by great white sharks on humans It's only a case of one or two bites the shark bites bites and Then disappears and leaves and most of the people who die from the great white shark attacks It's because of blood loss We're not even even even a even a even if it's an investigatory Investigatory bite by the great white shark can cause massive damage on humans because we are so flimsy But the sharks don't consume us. That's very different from seals if they hit a seal They consume the seal they want the seal if they hit a whale like they did it's all about consumption if they hit fish They take on dolphins. We're all about consumption with us. It's bite You know inflict that damage and then depart then straight away that that we aren't on their diet and When you get into a situation like where I was

When I freed up with them in the past or when any humans are freed up with them in those control Control situations. You do realize you're not actually on the menu and that these sharks can distinguish very quickly and very well between humans and Pray

I'll give you I'll give you that okay, but then where do whales come along it because I know Just reading the the press release you are out doing your research when you got this call of a whale that was Apparently dead you went over there and you had your drone up and that's where you got this the spectacular footage of this humpback Well, but we can talk about a humpback whale and you know But to actually picture the sheer size of those animals that they're massive animals And as you said the one that you'd spotted was was had been caught up or tangled up in some long line from fishing On which I think is that just really you know that really gets the bunny hugger in me going But that aside so this was a weakened shock and then you called the shock that Made that particular attack Helen. Tell me a bit about Helen. How would you know what shock it is? Yeah, well, you know having worked with these sharks for so many years

You do recognize individuals and Helen I first encountered back in 2012 during that what was called the O search expedition where we we put satellite Tags on 50 great white sharks around the coast And that involved catching them bringing them up onto this Platform that was submerged bringing the platform up out of the water then having that 15-minute window where we Attached the satellite tag to the dorsal fin We did a number of other things to the sharks taking blood taking tissue samples and then release them and and After that in case of Helen I Or the team tractor for about three years We wanted to investigate their movements around South Africa movements offshore Try to get an idea of the overall Habitat use of great white sharks, and that's why we wanted to go for at least 50 great white sharks so we could get a big picture of where these sharks do hang out where they migrate to what is this using movements And it was it was only after I I filmed this footage took it back home and started looking at it that I saw the remnants of the satellite tag on her dorsal fin and Then when I could get better pictures of her dorsal fin and zoom in I compared them to The ones we had put satellite tags on that's when I recognized it was it was the shark called Helen She had grown a lot She she was over four meters when she took on this whale, but when we put the tag on her She was about three point one three point two meters if I remember correctly So it was about two or three years later or four years later six years later actually and Yes, you'd grown quite a bit. So it was it was nice to see she was still alive and still functioning But yeah, she turned into credit quite a predator Which is which is amazing and I'm gonna say this again that that footage of her actually making the attacks on the on the whale What she does how she does it? It's it's graphic. Okay, so if you very squeamish and sensitive Maybe look through one eye only but it is well well worth watching when we come back We're gonna wrap up and I'm gonna ask Ryan a little bit more about Helen and what he did or what she did with the whale And if there was any other Evidence to suggest that maybe sharks do attack whales when we come back. It is what's involved

And we're back what's involved you're listening to and my special guest Ryan Johnson we're talking about the National Geographic that documentary which is Shark versus well, that's going to be coming up at next Friday It's all of part of the shark fest which is happening on national geographic wild Friday That's the 17th of july 6 o'clock in the evening. You're going to be able to see that particular episode It's frighteningly fascinating as I said Ryan so Helen comes in she attacked very specifically On this on this world. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, sure well, the first thing I noticed was where she was concentrating her interest and and initially she focused very much on that tail region And what I worked out was the reason she was doing that was because just before the tail flares out You've got the cordal peduncle there, which is that very thin part and she could actually get her entire mouth around that she could latch on and And what we know about the physiology there is that there's very big Veins there that are quite close to the surface and what she achieved in doing by latching on to that area and biting was to open up a vein And you could see, you know as soon as she sort of hit that and opened up that vein These big plumes of blood started gushing out of the whale and And you realized, you know what other what better way to overcome a prey species that big than by, you know Bleeding it out essentially and that's what she did. She opened up that vein The blood started pluming out and then she she backed off She'd stay around but she backed off and she circled she would come in and almost look for responses from the whale And it was almost as if she was trying to gauge how weak is this whale now? How weak is this whale now?

and then it was around 30 40 minutes after that then she really started coming in again and her focus had switched from that tail up to sort of the head region of the whale and What she would do is essentially come and try to latch on to somewhere on the head and when she did latch on she She just laid there quite still often And it was as if she was trying to tug The whale's head down just by her weight being on the head of this whale and that's what she did She just come back head went for the head pulled it down once she she Actually got onto the top of the head and almost rolled the whale over Um, but I realized she was actually trying to you know drown this weakened whale and that's what she did She pulled it down so many times that one of the times This whale just didn't have the energy then to come back up to the surface because we know these whales have to be air breathers and When it couldn't get its head back up to the surface it it suffocated it drowned and then it just disappeared down And dropped down to the bottom of the ocean and a few minutes later Helen the shark disappeared and I assume she went down there to Start that final phase, which was the feeding phase

Absolutely amazing, um the rest of of the story did have we reached a conclusion do sharks hunt whales?

I don't think i've reached a full conclusion yet. Um, what I do know is that the great whites aren't Tracking along the migration path with the whales looking for Opportunities the great whites do still prefer hanging out in the area that they like and The whales go off on their migration up and down the coast Without the great white sort of shadowing them Well, you know those whales particularly in in south africa have to come through areas such as Plates such as mussel bay such as hund's bite where you get these big concentrations of great white sharks

And set those areas where Whales can be vulnerable But it's not many whales, you know The first thing you have to know about these humpback whales is most of the time they'll be in loose pods and they can cooperate and part Of that family structure their structure is so they can protect the weak ones Um, they're also massively powerful and way too powerful I think for a shark to to be able to take them on if it's a fit healthy whale So you need a situation where you get these very Weak whales that also have become isolated from their their their family pods Um, and I think that's definitely what happened in this situation How rare it is? We don't know yet, but what I have found out, you know through through doing research because i'm not typically a whale scientist But looking at the whale research it's over 50 to 78 percent of humpback whales That will be entangled by human nets human long lines during their life And it's that type of entanglement That will make these whales basically A slow death for them And whether they drown eventually or whether they wash up on the beach or whether a shark gets them, you know You don't know but it's this impact of of humans with our netting and all the lines and everything we're sticking in the water That is ultimately causing so many of these whales to get to this weakened very vulnerable state where potentially a great white shark Can take them on but it does require Everything to come together. You have to have a big shark. It has to be an area where these great whites are naturally hanging out During the time of the migration and a whale has to come through and be in that sort of vulnerable situation I think it's very very rare For that to come together, but um, I think it could become more common If if us as humans keep on putting so much things in the water Particularly over these, you know, very well established migratory pathways that whales utilize Yeah, you know, there's there's there's not a lot to be said about the human race in terms of how we look after this planet But uh, that's maybe a discussion for another day ryan before I let you go What's next for ryan johnson?

Um, you know I'm waiting to get back out at sea again Um, you know, we've got our our research institute We we want to do research. We want to want to go out and study because being out there Is when you see these type of things when you get the idea so At the moment, it's just a waiting game Um, i'm really hoping that you know this documentary does arouse interest Um, and and maybe natural geographic wants to come on and support more of our work down here That would be awesome. Um, you know, they're a great organization and you know, I'd love for them to jump in and do something like that So, um, yeah, i'm just I think like many people waiting at the moment

Ah, yes, and none of us know when this waiting thing is going to end. It's uh, I suppose there's positive and negatives on both sides ryan. It's it's amazing that uh, you've managed to get that footage It's it's a great tale, um Somebody's that's listening now. I can only recommend next friday six o'clock That year while go and check it out. It is an amazing Uh documentary some great footage there Um ryan, thank you to you. Thank you for doing this. We wish you all the best Um, and hey keep in touch. Let us know if you're doing anything else interesting because we'd love to chat to you again Well, thank you for talking to me. David. It's been it's been a real pleasure and i'll definitely get in touch Um next time I get some really interesting information for everybody Fantastic stuff ryan. We really appreciate it Uh all the best, uh with the the the actual launch and uh to watch it's going to be really cool I think to be able to watch it on that geo world next friday. So there we go. That is my special guest Uh ryan johnson told you it was well worth sticking around for Um, and we do say once again. Thank you to him and to you I'd also like to say thank you for listening